Dealing with defiance?
 

This morning we were working in the garden. DD LOVES to dig and I love to let her, but we're getting to the point where seeds need to go in most places. So she was digging in one bed while I was planting in the next bed. Then, she stepped in the bed. I told her she needed to stay on the grass or on the path between beds. She did not get off the bed so I repeated that she needed to get off the bed and stay on the grass or on the path. Then I helped her back onto the grass and showed her how to walk around to the path. She did, then jumped into the bed. I removed her to the path. She kicked mulch up onto the bed.

At this point maybe I just should have removed us both from the situation? But I didn't. It's gorgeous out, I wanted to be outside with her and get things done because we've had rain lately and it's finally nice. I set her on the grass, looked her in the eye and repeated that she could dig in the bed with her shovel but her feet needed to stay on the grass or on the path and if she could not behave properly in the garden, she would have to stay out of the garden. As soon as I let go of her she ran, laughing, through the garden. :mad At this point I was getting angry and did not handle myself well. :blush I grabbed her arm and swung her out of the garden twice in a way that was not so gentle or self-controlled. After the second time I grabbed her hand and walked her down, away from the garden, towards the front yard. Once there she broke free and ran ahead and straight into one of my flower gardens. :doh I grabbed her out of there and carried her, first laughing and then crying, inside.

I just feel so defeated about this. I was rougher with her than I want to be. I let my anger get a hold of me. I need scripts on how to deal with direct defiance like this (or help me see what else it is - that's the only vocabulary I have to describe these actions :scratch). She doesn't often look at me and do exactly what I just told her not to do, but when she does it is one of my major buttons. Coming from my FOO, that = defiance = spanking and I don't have any other positive tools to use in that circumstance. I didn't spank her today, but boy did I want to! :(

Re: Dealing with defiance?
 

I have the same problem, so I would love to hear what others say about this!

Re: Dealing with defiance?
 

I think the best thing is prevention.

So basically what I'm saying is, you did exactly what I would have done, except you gave her more chances than she can understand. Instead of telling her two or three times, then physically moving her two or three times, then taking her away, then taking her inside... it should look more like telling her while physically moving her once, then taking her away (distraction), then taking her inside if necessary (because I totally understand the being fed up with it when she runs through the flower garden after the other issue!)

Re: Dealing with defiance?
 

Ok, first of all (having had two children go through this stage and one stil lin it) - it is completely age-expected developmentally and not a sign you're doing anything wrong as a parent. So please feel reassured on that front :yes.

Secondly, this is one of those things that takes time - months if not about 2 years - for them to get more of a handle on (that is with consistent teaching and repetition). You will see improvement in that time, but it will be intermittent and inconsistent until they're 4-5ish and then the compliance significantly increases without requiring GOYBP from yourself.

Right now I'd say DS is at 90%+ compliance with what I say without my needing to GOMB. DD is at 30-45% compliance. But a year ago? She was at 20%ish and it could be less on some days and more on others.

Ex. Cleaning up. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that when I ask her to clean something up (she's 6 months older than your DD) that I will have to GOMB and help her do it - I repeat in my head 'get off my butt, get off my butt, get off my butt' and reread Joanne's article on this often when I'm frustrated :yes). BUT - at this point the amount I have to GOMB alternates and it's not constant. Sometimes I ask her to pick up and she says "Ok mommy" and does it no issue. Sometimes I don't even have to ask and she cleans up all on herown. Sometimes I have to take her hands to do it and she fights me (sometimes all of that within a half hour time span :giggle).

Her 'compliance function' is completely inconsistent at this point and I've accepted that b/c I also know that with my consistency and her growing maturity over the next year or two she will grow into greater listening and self-control skills. This is why parenting and discipline is a marathon and not a sprint :rockon.

Ok, so in the scenario above a few ideas:
1. Before going out into the garden, verbally rehearse the rules with her and see if she'll repeat them ("Listen to mommy, step only on _______, etc... - only 2-3 rules MAXIMUM and if you can make them rhyme or in a song even better. Our 'rule' for the store is this: "Don't be crazy" and that is what DD repeats to me :giggle, but she follows it really well). This verbal rehearsal before going out is key both for setting expectations and helping her think ahead to her actions. Don't skip it!

2. You're right that you needed to get her out of the situation sooner - next time tell yourself it's a '3 strikes and we're outta here' or something like that (or make it just 1-2 times if it's a big issue that you're really focusing on). THat doesn't mean you stay inside forever, but you are setting the boundary that not respecting the boundaries means leaving the location (and I do use that phrase with my toddlers - DD just the other day yelled "DS is not 'pecting my boundawees!" :lol).

3. Disengage yourself emotionally from her 'defiance' - you will only drive a wedge between yourself and her and will not parent proactively if you're stuck in feeling offended/disrespected. It is perfectly acceptable to say "I am frustrated that you did not respect/listen to what I said. I want a little bit of alone time to calm down" and then take some time to calm down :yes. That's good self-care.

---------- Post added at 12:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 AM ----------

So basically, once you decided to come inside you just make it happen regardless of what she does and don't try to address the other laughing/running in your garden issues until after you're both calm and more distant from the immediate situation.

Re: Dealing with defiance?
 

I agree it's defiance but also that it's age expected, even though it's inappropriate. And I also think you gave her too many chances. Make sure rules are understood when she goes out there and if she breaks the rule, she gets one correction (telling her no while you move her). If she breaks it again, into the house. And of course make sure she understands "We can only be outside if you follow the rules. The rule is to keep your feet on the grass. We will try again tomorrow (this afternoon, this weekend, etc) and if you can keep your feet on the grass, we will stay outside longer. The seeds need to grow and they cannot grow if you step on them. And then our garden won't give us any food to eat/flowers to look at."

Part of good discipline is teaching our kids that they are more important than anything else, and that there is nothing we will not stop in order to discipline them. I think this actually makes them feel secure, even if they do not like it. I totally get the momentum to get something done, but out-of-hand kids need to be removed from the situation if they cannot comply.

Each kid seems to have a line between what degree of discipline makes them listen and what degree makes them feel like you are rejecting them. Right on that line is where they take you seriously, but don't feel rejected. I've had to find that line for each of my kids and discipline them right there on that line. My dd1 was hurt very easily but required very little correction. Ds isn't hurt easily and requires more correction. Dd2 is in between.

Re: Dealing with defiance?
 

Thank you, ladies! This is super helpful and encouraging.

Thanks for this. This was actually the issue this morning. My instinct was to remove her from the situation sooner but I (selfishly) didn't want to leave. I need to think about this ahead of time so I can approach it matter of factly instead of letting the fact that we need to stop a fun activity make me mad.

This board has been such a blessing just in the short time I've been here! :heart I feel like I am learning SO much about how to be the parent I've always wanted to be but wasn't sure how to get there. :yes

---------- Post added at 01:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 PM ----------

Thanks for this too, particularly #3. It's something I have a hard time with and definitely need to work on.

Re: Dealing with defiance?
 

One of the things I've learned here that's helped me is to remove the word "defiance" from my vocabulary. Whether its defiance or not understanding or curiosity, the answer is still to GOYB and make it happen. :yes

Re: Dealing with defiance?
 

My son just turned 3 yesterday and this reminds me so much of something he'd do so I'm enjoying reading the replies too. I can relate to the feeling of not wanting to go back inside! That's usually my problem disciplining outside too I don't want to go back in or deal with the meltdown that would follow if I did take him in for doing something 'wrong'. So in this situation do you ignore any ensuing meltdown? When would it be okay to go back outside again? No garden stomping here but lately DS is obsessed with turning our water on which drives me crazy! He eventually is distracted but I'd say it takes a good 6 attempts (moving his hand, suggesting something else to play, and my yeah empty threats of going inside...) on my part. There are time he's allowed to have it like when we water the garden or fill up the pool but just pointlessly spraying water on the ground is not cool lol. :snooty

Re: Dealing with defiance?
 

With a 3 year old I would probably just stay inside for 5ish minutes. The interrupting what you're doing to discipline is what is important b/c that helps build the habit for YOU as the parent of GOYB and doing what it takes to teach boundaries - it pays big, huge, gigantic dividends :yes :yes :yes. I can't emphasize that enough. Being consistent in enforcing what you say means that in the future you'll be able to be outside with less issues.

Permissive parenting comes in when we're not willing to do what it takes to enforce the boundaries we set - if he's allowed to play with water then have at it :rockon. If he's not supposed to play with the hose and you've already set him up for success (rehearsed the rule beforehand, redirected him, etc...) then warn him that doing the hose means going in the house and do it. Tell him that you can come back out later if he's ready to listen about the hose (and later can be 5-10 minutes later - 3 yo's don't have a huge time concept ;)), so you're not fully losing outside time.

Re: Dealing with defiance?
 

Just a quick thought... would it be possible to have a little garden bed specially just for her? My mom was a big gardener too, and one of the clearest things I remember about that age was her staking off the last few feet of two of her planter beds, and giving one each to me and my brother. I even remember what I planted. Radishes & Zinnias. Having my own garden to tend kept me busy while she was working on the rest, and helped me with the lesson of "if you stomp on your flowers they won't grow".

Re: Dealing with defiance?
 

I wrote this awhile back--thought it might help :) it's from the faq stickies http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...d.php?t=165271

Re: Dealing with defiance?
 

Thank you for this! That's very helpful. Separating the character training from addressing the behavior of the moment is difficult for me and something I need to work on building a habit of. It's not something I experienced in my FOO and so I'm not sure exactly what it looks like. SO thankful God's grace covers all my stumbling attempts at motherhood! :amen

Re: Dealing with defiance?
 

If you don't want to think of it as defiance, think of it as persistance. Defiance is "She wants to go against me. It's about us, and it's about her being under control vs being out of control." Persistence is, "She wants to do what she wants. She's not thinking about me, she's thinking about dirt. She's pursuing her own goals, and I'm an obstacle not a person in her mind."

As for what to do, I think what you did was fine, except that you got mad and perhaps rough with redirecting her. If you'd done all that while remaining calm, or if you'd ended it earlier while you were still calm, that would have been fine.

A script might be, "I see that the temptation for you to do xyz is too hard for you in this situation. You aren't able to make your feet and hands obey the rule. I think I will take you inside since you can't handle being here."

Older kids I would give another try, to see if they can 'up their game' and handle the limit... And they'd have to discuss their plan with me... But at a young age, it's just over when I call it 'over'. Protests don't get anything but sympathy.