Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

I should have seen this coming. I mean I was raised with this. So here is the scenario...

Mom---Lala will you please pick up your shoes and put them away
Lala---not right now
Mom---Lala I asked you to please pick up your shoes
Lala---Yes, and I said not right now
Mom---Lala, if you do not pick up your shoes then I'll throw them out
Lala----(obligingly picks up her shoes)
Mom---Now why did I have to threaten to get you to do what I asked?


At this point I stepped in. I really understood what Lala was doing and I figured Mom would figure this out, she didn't. OK so pet peeve of mine, don't make a request unless it is a REQUEST. If it REQUIRED then simply state it. Now don't get me wrong, I use please, thank you, etc with my kids when they are called for, but when it is a requirement, I don't ask, I state. Here's how it WOULD HAVE happened had it been me...

Me--Lala, pick up your shoes and put them away
Lala---yes, ma'am
Me---thank you

If she did say no, then I would have told her the probable consequence, but chances are, for something like that, she would have just done it. I explained this to mom and of course got the typical line I got as a child....

"if an authority asks politely it is the same thing as being told":scratch:scratch

Sorry, but last job I had, if it was optional, it was a please. If she was asking for volunteers it was a please. But she never said, "OK well, would you all please clean up the kitchen, we have an inspection tomorrow?" Ummm, no, it was, "there is an inspection tomorrow and the kitchen needs to be cleaned. Thank you."

Am I completely insane? I mean, should Lala see this a request as a requirement?

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

Not insane. ITA w/you.

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

That is why the 5 Steps are worded as they are

some children are able to be easily taught that please doesn't make it optional and I know that's important to some parents, when they are the parents and children together that is fine :) When the children aren't reading the same playbook then it gets tricky :doh

IME when I get resistance I just stop and apologize for miscommunicating--then I explain that they need to do whatever and they do.

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

Then how does an authority say something when it *is* optional? Surely it happens sometimes...?

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

I think that the mindset is that there is not an option when the authority speaks. Please or whatever is just being polite, but it does not mean that there is a choice in obeying.

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

I have this same conversation all.the.time. :bangshead

DH will "ask" Monkey to do something, then get mad when she says no. :shrug3 You made it optional dude. what did you expect? :scratch It baffles him that the kids are more compliant with me than with him. But, it drives him absolutely crazy if I try to suggest a different way.

My mom has that same mindset as well. I think it has to do with the way that she was raised - children did not have the option of saying no, so the politeness was just a curtesy. She definitely has the mindset of "Do what I say, when I say it, without attitude or questioning, just because I said so" - (DH and I sometimes struggle with residuals of this from our childhoods as well :O)

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

I got a confused look from a gramma when I was babysitting. She said , "How did you get him to clean all his toys up?". I said "I told him to." She said she often told him to and he didn't. She said , "here watch this... *to the child* E , would you please put your shoes in your room ?". E gave the response he wanted. "no."
I said , "You asked. I tell. E , your Gramma meant to say 'put your shoes in your room now. Hop like a bunny if you want'.
And he did.
Leaving me thinking "of course" and leaving the gramma thinking I'm some magical soothsayer. She called me a "mini Mary Poppins".

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

My parents would have plainly said that it was optional or "only if you want to". They wouldn't have asked if it were a command, either, so there wasn't a chance for confusion.

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

I don't think youre insane either....if it int optional you can't start with "will you...":no

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

It drives E batty that I ask and accept no, AND that I tell without asking :doh
It just makes sense to me.
I HATE when my kids get defensive when I asked them and they do say no. I tell them "I asked you a question. No is acceptable. There is no need for the attitude." When I tell and they say no I say "I didn't ask you, I told you. Now do it."

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

I often have to tell them the difference between asking & telling. If you want it done in a timely manner, tell them. If you don't care when it gets done, ask them.

Then when I give the child a request, I have to remind the other adult that I asked them, did not tell them, and they don't have to jump up and do it right that second.

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

:think

This is a great thread for me to read. Thank you all! I grew up with the same type of "requests" as your mom gave, OP, that eventually turned to threats.
I am fairly certain that I always talk like this as a result. "please do this, please do that" and assumed that because I said it in a certain tone or whatever that it was still a command, just a "polite" one.

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

I'm having a light bulb moment. I don't ask with please and thank you, but I do end my command with "okay?"

"DS, go put your shoes away, okay?"

Then I get frustrated when he tells me, "no," thinking that he is not complying. But now I'm realizing that he is telling me, "No, that is not okay with me." :think

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

Rest assured, you are perfectly sane. :yes It took me forever to learn the difference between requesting and requiring. Saying "please" and "thank you" is just demonstrating politeness while giving an order.

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

This !


My mom said to my nephew, "why don't you put your car on the counter so we can set the table"
Nephew "no thank you".
Grandma :scratch
His mom "E when Grandma says that she really means, "Put your car on the counter"
Nephew "OH! OK." then he does it.

I think adults need to be more clear in their language. You can be polite and say please and still use a command without making it sound optional.

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

This is a great thread. Eye opening, even. But what about the 3 year old that still says "NO!" to the direct command? That's where the 5 steps comes in, no?

:sigh The 5 steps in this house just end up looking like me (struggling to maintain my composure) physically dragging said 3 year old (who is doing the limp noodle thing, while whining "no....no....no....") around, cleaning up toys or whatever. Me holding her hand closed over the toy, then prying her hand open to release it into the box..... :ph

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

:think

If I said "Will you..." to a student or a child and they answered "No, I don't want to," I'd think it was rude. So I guess maybe I use "Will you please" as a command. But then again, I ask my husband, "Will you please..." a lot, and I'm not in the habit of issuing him commands. :) But then again, if I said something like, "Honey, will you please help me with these groceries?" and he said, "No, I don't want to," I'd think that was rude too. If he had a good reason for saying no, he'd give it, and then I'd be fine with it. But I'd be :hunh if he just said no without explaining. So I guess in our house "Will you please" is a gray area between an option and a command. :scratch

If something is truly optional I say, "Do me a favor? Could you..." Favors are optional. And I guess the conditional tense is also a way of signaling that it is optional, although I've never thought about it that way before.

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

At 3, for picking up shoes, I would try to make it a game.

"Uh OH!! THE SHOES ESCAPED!!!! HURRY, RUN, CATCH THEM BEFORE THEY GET AWAY!!!"

For the toys, Songs, or even breaking it down into smaller groups...

OK so now bring me all the red cars. Where do you think their home should be? Should we line them up, or stack them?


Also, realizing the limitations of a 3 yr. old, often times I would consider it a win if I got them to help me clean up. Expecting a 3 yr. old to honestly just clean may be beyond them at that point. Mine weren't reliable about picking up their toys, well honestly, only the older 3 have gotten to that point. Simon still goes limp at the thought of picking up his room.

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

I have heard commands being phrased as, "Will you do me a favor and..." many times. :think

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

This is another one of those grown-up things that NEVER made sense to me.

My parents did it all the time. And it drove me NUTS, because I could never tell if they really meant "please" or if they were just "being polite". Tone of voice, body cues, none of it "read" clearly enough to me, or consistently enough, and every time I thought I'd figured it out, I'd read someone wrong and get confused again. And then when *I* would use "please" as a just being polite thing, and get angry when the person said no, I would get told off for being disrespectful or getting above myself. Same if I just said "Do this, thank you." Even if it was just to my brother. I had to say please, and I wasn't allowed to get mad if the person said no, no matter what it was ("will you please get your trucks out of the toilet and go away so I can pee????" true story), but when an adult said "please", I wasn't allowed to say no. Very confusing, and all it really succeeded in doing was making me mad and obstinate out of frustration.

If you have a child that readily picks up on and understands unspoken social signals like tone of voice, body language, facial expression, then you may have more success with the "politely worded command". But if your child has any sort of hang-up in that area (whether it's age related, sensory issue, autism, etc), then he or she may a) not be able to grasp the "authority asks politely but it still means do it now" concept, or b) see right through the whole double standard of it and refuse to cooperate until the adults start to behave in accordance with their own rules! That's basically what happened in my head... I couldn't figure out the complexities of the game, so I just decided to stop playing until someone simplified the rules.

I've noticed this problem in the way I communicate too. I was so heavily conditioned to "ask politely" that I screw myself up in talking with my husband. Because he wasn't raised that way, when I say "Please think about what you want for dinner", he hears "Please think about what you want for dinner, and deciding that you don't want any is fine too." Problem is, what I really mean by that is "Decide what meat you want for dinner, go downstairs, get it out of the freezer, and put it in a bowl to thaw so that come 4pm I can cook it for you." And then 4pm rolls around, nothing's thawed, and nobody's acting like they have any intention of cooking, and I get mad because hello, the nursing mama needs to eat, people! So I'm trying to break the habit and say what I actually mean. Hopefully this will help when JJ starts getting verbal and needs me to be clear in my communication!

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

I honestly don't remember there being any options.. If there were, we were given two choices. Would you like Pizza, or Spagetti for dinner?

I think I kind of do both... Or maybe I am doing the same thing...

I usually say, Son, put your shoes away please. I guess I don't really need the "please".. But it still sounds like a command to me.

But if I said Son, will you put away your shoes please? I would consider than a choice..

What say you all?

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

Personally, I wouldn't be able to discern. That is probably why I avoid using "please" unless it is optional. I have trouble with picking up on subtle clues sometimes, so I try to make sure I follow what I would like others to do for me. I try to teach my 15 yr. old, and he does really well, these are our guidelines for avoiding confusion....

Make your expectations clear (don't ask when you mean to tell, make sure they know what you want, make sure you say it clearly in a language and tone they understand)

Respect their abilities (don't ask Simon to take out the 20 pd. trash)

Answer even the simplest question (yes, sometimes questions are used to stall for time, but sometimes they are honest)

For me, I prefer if people take these same principles with me, so I try to use them with my children. I don't just say, "pick up the toys", I say, "pick up the toys and put them in your toybox". Expectations are made clear. If I say, "please pick up the toys and put them in the toy box?" I feel that is unclear, it sounds like I don't care one way or the other whether he does or not.

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

I might have to work on that. My parents always demanded in question form, so I have tried really hard to leave the question tone out, and use a statement form.

I am going to listen to myself for the next few days and see how I really talk. :think

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

You might also try, "The toys need to be picked up and put away now," and see if it works. :think

Or maybe, "I would like the toys picked up and put away now." :think

"Let's see how fast you can put all the toys away!" could also work. :think

It probably depends on the child and his or her mood at the time. :think

I say: i need you to pick up toys now. Or, it's time to pick up toys.


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Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

This thread is so enlightening. I have always been a people pleasing, manners-minded sort of person. I always say, "please" and "thank you" and have, as a matter of courtesy, began or ended my commands with "please". No wonder DS is always acting as if I've just casually asked him whether or not he wants to do it! After reading this thread, I decided to test this out.

Since things have been hectic around here this past week, between my nephew's first birthday party and my DS and nephew getting colds, I relaxed my "no bedroom eating rule" a little bit and allowed DS to set up a TV tray in his bedroom and eat his veggie crumble tacos tonight. A little later he wanted a cereal snack in my bedroom, so I asked him to bring the tray on in, but make sure her cleaned the tray off first. Actually, I said, "please make sure there aren't any veggie crumbles on your tray". He turned the whole thing upside down and dumped the crumbles onto his floor and happily marched with the clean tray into my room.

I wanted him to clean up the mess for himself while I got the cereal ready. Instead of approaching it as optional, I handed him the cordless sweeper and politely, yet firmly, said, "you need to take the sweeper and suck up the crumbles you dropped". He whined and asked, "can't you do it?" and I replied, "no, I will be busy getting your cereal ready". He cheerfully took the sweeper into his room, tidied up the mess and came back all happy to a bowl of cereal. I was amazed. We did a little "high five" dance and enjoyed our cereal. :yes

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

Well, what I mean is, when my kids are a bit older (ie, more capable) I can foresee days when I will feel like, 'hey, they've done their chores and that's fine, but I would really feel blessed if they'd help me out by doing the vacuuming' and I'd feel more blessed if they *chose* to do it rather than thinking everything I asked them to do was a command, yk? So if I were to teach them that 'no' is never an option then there would be no way for me to make a request of that nature. So I'm not doing that :shrug
Plus I think expecting kids to always jump as soon as you give an instruction is an invasion of personal boundaries, treating them as a robot instead of an individual. So having a 'command form', a 'immediate command form' and a 'request form' of communication allows the child autonomy while giving the parent the ability to pull rank when necessary.

In any case, with the example in the OP, the problem was not disobedience, it was miscommunication/ misunderstanding. Therefore the solution is not to threaten but to clarify. And then it's up to the parents, not grandma, to decide if they want to make the rule that all requests from authorities be treated as commands - and to teach this, not just expect the child to somehow *know*.

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

I am on maternity leave so I'm still getting work emails. I looked up the latest staff email from my boss. There were five commands on it, and four of them were written with "please," including the one that was important enough to her that she underlined it. So I think teaching children that "please" does not equal optional is a useful skill even if you don't personally prefer that mode of communication.

None of them were phrased, "Will you please..." They were commands, not questions. But I can imagine being in a meeting and sitting next to a pile of handouts, and her saying something like, "Would you please take those and pass them around?" And I would not be doing myself any favors if I said no.

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

I'm finding this thread depressing b/c I ask, tell, whatever and still get 'Noooooo!' :banghead :bag


This sounds more like us -except dd1 is 5.5 :blush

I don't think my dc have a tidying up mood :(

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

Do you have a regular tidying-up time? That's what worked best for us for a long time. We've had it as part of our bedtime routine, or pre-dinner, but that's not necessarily ideal (tired or hungry...)... anyway I find that I get less resistance after a few days of doing the same thing at the same time, it just becomes 'what we do'. Of course, we have our good and bad days, too ;)
Now I'm trying to work towards putting things away as soon as we've finished with them but I find that a lot harder than having a designated time of the day, especially when I go 'flip, we need to be out the door right now, we're late, where are your shoes?' and we don't really have time to pack up so we just have to leave it for later :bag

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

We don't have a tidy up routine, but I (try to) have one thing tidied away before we start the next. Without hijacking the thread, let's just say it's pretty much *always* a battle, even if the next activity is something they really want to do. Dd1 missed gymnastics, her absolute favourite activity, last week b/c she wouldn't tidy up or even accept any help :sigh

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

Good point, Amazement!
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Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

I think this is a very valid point. :yes I totally understand the point of not "asking" our children to do something if it isn't optional so that we are clearly communicating. But, I rarely "command" my husband to help me with something and I would be offended if he refused when I "asked". So, obviously I'm not communicating very clearly but I don't know a better way. :shrug3

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

DH and I talked about this some last night. I am still mulling it over. He does not speak the same way and thought I was doing it intentionally. While we were discussing, Hammy started to do something and without thinking I said something like "E can you please stop doing X while Daddy and I are talking?" She just kind of looked at me and kept doing it. I corrected myself and said "Stop doing X. You are too loud." And she said okay and went to do something else.

I think the way I TELL is too similar to how I ASK and is confusing.

Of course, then DH and I got into a discussion about first time obedience, and he thinks that regardless of how it is phrased, that the child should never say NO to the parent. :-/ We are going to talk about it more later though when we have time without distracting kids.

---------- Post added at 10:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 AM ----------

:hug2
My childhood was JUST like that! And your second paragraph makes sense in relation to my DD1.

Now I have to think about how I always ask that Hammy say "No, thank you" if someone does something she doesn't like (ie trying to take a toy, or invading her personal space). Just a loud "No!" seems rude. Does the same thing apply here? She has a limited vocab still so I have to give her a script with words she can use. :think

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

Maybe I am missing something, but saying "please" in our culture does not equal a question, so please does not make a request optional. Even law enforcement use please, when asking for your paperwork after pulling over.

In my very black and white thinking grammar rigid home:

Please do abc. = Do abc now.
Will you do abc? = Do you have any plans in the future to do abc?
Can you do abc? = Are you capable of doing abc?
I want abc done. = Expressing a want, not a command or request. (response often is "I want xyz done.")
Time to do abc. = Timekeeping, not nessesarily directed at the audience. (response often is "yeah, so")
Would you do abc please? = a request

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

Okay, I'm going to answer this-and you're probably not going to like my answer much :hug :duck I want you to know though, that when I asked this same exact question-and I got the same exact answer I am about to give-I hated it too. And it was right. And I'm not sure I'm feeling so great about that. BUT...I definitely commiserate. :giggle

So if the 3yo is melting down all over the 5steps and you end up walking them through things in that manner you can:

1) Use playful parenting
2) Use when/then statements ("When you've finished then we get to have a snack!")
3) Simply and calmly remind them that nothing else will happen until they are ready to clean up so they can take all the time they want but it's gonna happen (which is not always possible depending upon the situation but it IS an option).
4) Have a routine or set them up for success with fewer toys or a "one toy out at a time rule."
5) Reflect feelings and calmly reinforce that it needs to happen and so you will help them through it.

And yet...there's still a possibility that you're just going to have a child that NEEDS to go through a phase there they are screaming and melting down as you help them through as they learn that Mommy's words have meaning and we need to clean up after ourselves. And that's miserable. :dohSometimes all of the "tricks" just don't "work" because happy isn't the only acceptable emotion and you have a child who feels very strongly about certain things and has zero issues with expression those feelings very very loudly. :shifty

---------- Post added at 09:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 AM ----------

In our house a direct command uses the words: "You need to" :yes It's not necessarily the presence of "please" that makes it a question -it's the wording that presents it as an *option*.

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

I tried this one time and it felt so demeaning (to the child) that I simply don't do it. (Said in love :heart) I strongly feel that we should treat children with respect, and "forcefully helping" felt disrespectful, to me. :yes3 It also makes them quite disinclined to comply next time. I prefer to build good/happy/productive associations with cleaning up.

I agree with Heather's list :up And each child has their trigger, if you will. My oldest responds well to "when/then". My middle could care less :giggle He likes it when I join - and typically cheerfully helps me. :)

Also, I rarely get good responses to clean up "commands" with a 3 yr old if they're in a funky mood :shifty
"Let's clean up the markers" whilst singing the clean up song leaves it open. And, yes, you will sometimes clean up most on your own. But it's an option if the above list isn't working. :shrug3

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

OK, so here's a scenario...

DH will you please help me bring in the groceries

Sure just give me a few minutes

This wouldn't offend you, right? Well, that is basically what Lala did, she didn't want to do it right then, so she said no. Since children don't have the tact that adults do, they are often expressing themselves the best way they know how, in that particular moment. That is how I look at it. Hey, my teen has already gotten to the point where when asked, he will say, "let me finish this level first." To me, the difference you see isn't necessarily being rude but an inability to be as polite as an adult.

---------- Post added at 08:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 AM ----------

I see saying thank you as completely different than a please. I make sure to say thank you, ESPECIALLY when it's something that the other person has to do that they really don't want to. The reason being, a thank you is a sign of appreciation that the person has done something for you. So I do see that as completely different.

---------- Post added at 08:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 AM ----------


Honestly, last time I got pulled over, he didn't say please. I get what you're saying though. And if that works in your home, then that is great. My children don't get those subtleties though. They are quite subtle differences and for children that don't pick up on the little cues, those are bound to get confused.

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

Man, this thread has been such a great reminder of so many little things that I've gotten too relaxed about. Thank you all so much! :kiss

Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom
 

I will "slip up" and say/ask "please do xyz"... they won't move or will tell me no (which really irritates me! it's a trigger for me!) so I respond with an honest "I'm really sorry. I did ask, but I didn't mean to. I meant to say "do xyz!" To which they will whine and complain and do it (and I will start singing Do everything without complaining from our Bible verse CD ;) )

Since it is a trigger for me to hear them tell me no I try try try to never give them the option to say no when I really don't want to hear it. Like if we are already having a bad day or something. The times I "slip up" and ask when I don't mean to are when we've been having really good days for a while, so I'm generally able to remind myself easily without losing it.

I do ask them to do things sometimes when I really mean it as a question. That sounds like "will you please xyz?" When I say that they know they can tell me no. And then someone else generally will try to "polish their halo" and gain favor ;) and will say "I'LL DO IT!!!"

And now that Jayden is getting older and has a handheld video game thingy I find myself having to bite my tongue and go back to 3yo language... "Turn the game off, put it down, and xyz"

My kids also don't do well with transitions... I can't really do the "five more minutes" thing. So I don't tell them things to do unless I want it done then. It makes it so much easier to get them to do something. It's very consistent that when I say something it happens then.