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Old 03-22-2010, 04:19 AM   #3
GCM_Sticky
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Default Re: Collected Past Posts about the Five Steps

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mamajane 03-06-2010 03:26 AM
Re: The Five Steps
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The question that comes up for me is when it comes to helping, like cleaning up, for example. How do you not end up doing it all? There have been a number of times helping has become "Mama do it while the kids sit there slacking and Mama gets mad at getting taken advantage of." Help!

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ArmsOfLove 03-06-2010 04:21 AM
Re: The Five Steps
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Originally Posted by mamajane (Post 2942656)
Quote:
The question that comes up for me is when it comes to helping, like cleaning up, for example. How do you not end up doing it all? There have been a number of times helping has become "Mama do it while the kids sit there slacking and Mama gets mad at getting taken advantage of." Help!
when children are young that is part of life beyond the times when handing them a towel and encouraging them to wipe up is viewed as fun.

As children get older (5 is a turning point in this ime) it's time to insist they do it. For most typically developing children this isn't a big deal. In fact, most children WANT to be social. I make sure to keep the idea that being able to do it without help is evidence you are growing up.

Once a child knows that resistance is futile they are going to do it. And I do always do it for them as they age. Toddlers, sure. But not beyond that. I might do it WITH them--put this in that bucket, hand that over here so I can put it up, etc. Eventually, for cleaning their room for example, I can give them one step and then they check back in with me and I give them the next, etc. Eventually they don't need to come ask the steps and I might pop in at the end and point out the few things that still need doing and give a

Any children that reaches 5 and still needs help frequently and for average things needs, imo, to be evaluated for special needs or have their diet considered.

ETA: I also encourage older children, or even same aged siblings, to help one another. Once we have 5 children there is no reason for mommy to be doing everything Often we don't ask children to do nearly as much as they are capable of.

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mamajane 03-09-2010 02:06 AM
Re: The Five Steps
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Originally Posted by mamajane (Post 2942656)
Quote:
The question that comes up for me is when it comes to helping, like cleaning up, for example. How do you not end up doing it all? There have been a number of times helping has become "Mama do it while the kids sit there slacking and Mama gets mad at getting taken advantage of." Help!
I didn't mean to sound like my kids don't help - they do. I was just thinking of a specific helping dynamic, and I think I figured it out. It's the general helping that isn't so helpful. The kind of helping that I've been doing more of lately works better, more specific advice, like breaking the stuff to be picked up into categories and assigning categories, for example. More direction than joining them in the doing. Or handing them stuff and telling them where to put it, because it can be hard to figure out where stuff goes.

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Title: Five steps with kids who weren't AP'd
Post by: ReadingMommy 03-25-2005 05:09 PM
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Do you think that if you didn't AP your kids that the 5 steps aren't as effective?

I just can't help but feel that I'm allowing an opportunity for them to choose to disobey because they WANT to disobey. I know I shouldn't judge their hearts, but I know my girls, and sometimes they just don't want to listen and I feel like they should listen because it's the right thing to do. Am I totally off base here and having no grace?

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MarynMunchkins 03-25-2005 05:38 PM
Re: Five steps with kids who weren't AP'd
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Well, you're coming from a punitive mindset. BTDT...and it's even harder those first few weeks after making a change to GBD because you have different boundaries and your kids are pushing them.

Sometimes I don't feel like listening to what my kids need either, and I should because they need me and it's the right thing to do. I sure don't want my dh yelling at me and telling me to "just do it" because I'm supposed to. I want his help and encouragement in order to get through it. Our kids want the same thing.

Hang in there! The 5 steps do work for every kid (and adults too!), even if it does take more time and patience than you think you have.

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ArmsOfLove 03-25-2005 05:46 PM
Re: Five steps with kids who weren't AP'd
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If they are resistant to doing things without help that says two things: 1) what you were doing before didn't actually teach them to obey because it's the right thing to do--it was because they were afraid of whatever would happen if they didn't; and 2) they are attempting to connect with you and find out what the real boundaries are. Rather than having a goal of them doing it without help, consider having a goal of them learning that doing it isn't optional--whether they do it without help or need help.

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Joanne 03-25-2005 09:21 PM
Re: Five steps with kids who weren't AP'd
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AP and GBD are related but separate. You can be AP and not use GBD. And you can use GBD/positive discipline and not be AP.

In fact, some of the best positive disicpline authors are not AP at all.

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LoveToReadMommy 03-26-2005 12:22 PM
Re: Five steps with kids who weren't AP'd
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I understand abour AP and GBD not being the same. I guess I was getting at the fact that maybe those of you who have AP'd from the start have a different connection to your kids, where they want to please you and that motivates them to listen.

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ArmsOfLove 03-27-2005 07:39 AM
Re: Five steps with kids who weren't AP'd
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Well, I actually learned the 5 Steps working in a church nursery and I didn't have an attachment to any of the children (although I formed some with them ). I never had a child with whom the 5 Steps didn't work--even if it meant using the Bear Hug. And I was able to establish myself with children in my class over about 3 weeks of seeing them an hour and a half a week. I worked in the class for over 2 years and I worked primarily with Kindergarten aged children but also with the 2's and 3's. It worked with all of them.

Now, when working with my own children, I do think it helps that we have the attachment from AP when it comes to helping me keep my cool and my response, but I do still feel punitive feelings and have to work to control them. Being the mother on call 24/7 is definately *more* than working in a classroom, but maybe because I know this tool is effective with everyone I stick with it

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TulipMama 03-27-2005 09:54 AM
Re: Five steps with kids who weren't AP'd
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Quote:
Quote:
If they are resistant to doing things without help that says two things: 1) what you were doing before didn't actually teach them to obey because it's the right thing to do--it was because they were afraid of whatever would happen if they didn't; and 2) they are attempting to connect with you and find out what the real boundaries are. Rather than having a goal of them doing it without help, consider having a goal of them learning that doing it isn't optional--whether they do it without help or need help.
Ooh! This is great, Crystal If we ever get random wisdom from mamas on rotation in a banner again, I want this one there!

LoveToReadMommy,

I found the Five Steps to be very helpful when transitioning from punitive parenting, because my thinking patterns were still very stuck in the old ruts. The Five Steps gave me a concrete plan to follow. I printed them out and posted them on the fridge. It helped a lot.

Over time, I've been able to modify it and add other tools. My thinking patterns have changed (mostly.)

When I'm struggling with "What should I do!?" or "This kid is driving me nuts!" then getting back to the Five Steps helps me figure out how to help my kids.

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LoveToReadMommy 03-29-2005 04:14 PM
Re: Five steps with kids who weren't AP'd
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I've been trying to figure out why my first post was from a punative mindset. Is it because I said I want them to listen because it's the right thing to do? Am I suppose to have no expectations of right and wrong? BTW, it's been 10 months that I've been transitioning, not a few weeks. I guess I'm a slow learner. I really want to learn, I'm tired of fumbling around!

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ArmsOfLove 03-29-2005 05:26 PM
Re: Five steps with kids who weren't AP'd
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Quote:
I know my girls, and sometimes they just don't want to listen and I feel like they should listen because it's the right thing to do.
Why do you say that they sometimes just don't want to listen? It's saying that they don't *want* to listen that assigns a negative intent. It's also unrealistic to expect young children to do something just because it's the right thing to do. That's the *goal*, but they aren't there yet. I mean, do you do everything all the time because it's the right thing to do? That's the goal for us too. It's not that you should have no standard--I have a VERY high standard, it's just that I take responsibility for helping them meet the standard when they can't do it themselves. And there are many reasons why they can't. Sometimes they don't understand, sometimes they are too tired, hungry, frustrated, overwhelmed, distracted, sad, etc.

I fully believe that children want to be social--that God created them to be--and if they aren't being social then it's because they either don't know how to or there is some obstacle blocking them (physical or emotional, etc).

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LoveToReadMommy 03-30-2005 09:02 AM
Re: Five steps with kids who weren't AP'd
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Wow, you are so right Crystal! Of course I don't always do the right thing...... So I guess when I said they don't want to listen, I meant just that, yet I expect them too because I'm the parent... I didn't even realize that was punative thinking....
I have a long ways to go, it's a whole new way to think. PTL that dh is on the same page with me now We're gonna try the comfy corner again, loved the thread about it, and about "why not time outs" Again, thanks so much, many blessings to you!

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ArmsOfLove 03-30-2005 09:09 AM
Re: Five steps with kids who weren't AP'd
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I'm so glad I was able to explain that And you are right--it's an entire paradigm shift. Eventually it invades every area of thinking--all relationships. Sometimes I even find myself thinking this way towards the people who cut me off in traffic

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Irene 03-30-2005 09:31 AM
Re: Five steps with kids who weren't AP'd
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hugs to you Lovetoreadmommy... I just wanted to say its been almost 2 years for me and I *still* struggle with punitive mindset.... getting better, but the old tapes still play sometimes :/

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purstrength 03-30-2005 08:49 PM
Re: Five steps with kids who weren't AP'd
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Quote:
I found the Five Steps to be very helpful when transitioning from punitive parenting, because my thinking patterns were still very stuck in the old ruts. The Five Steps gave me a concrete plan to follow. I printed them out and posted them on the fridge. It helped a lot.
I need to do this! Thank you for the idea!

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jujubnme 03-30-2005 09:08 PM
Re: Five steps with kids who weren't AP'd
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I've just been reading Hold On To Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld (you're going to get tired of me quoting from it--it's my new favorite "discipline" book ). He talks about doing things for the right reason as something that requires the ability to be self-reflective--something that only comes with maturity, like Crystal has suggested. With preschoolers we kind of "script" them to do the right thing, but true moral reasoning doesn't come till much later. To bring this full-circle to your original post, though, the process of psychological individuation (becoming one's own person) required for that kind of thinking *is* best incubated when the child is oriented to an attached, unconditionally loving parental relationship. So in that you are right . (And just to clarify, I'm not saying AP'ed from the beginning, but AP'ed in the present .)

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Title: Am I working the five steps right?
Poster: kklibrarian 04-07-2005 02:11 PM
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Ok -- DD is 2.75 years old. We are just getting into GBD, after being extremely dissatisfied with our earlier attempts at more punitive parenting. I've tried to start instituting a comfort corner instead of time-out, and I'm working on using the five steps. I'm having some questions about helping DD in situations where she's having trouble doing what we've asked. I'll make a request -- take your baby carriage back to your room, for example. Then I'll explain -- we're done playing babies and someone might trip on the carriage. Then we get to helping and things seem to go haywire. DD's reaction to helping makes me think she's interpreting it as punitive. She'll begin to sob as I help her push the carriage back to her room. Would it be better to just distract DD and do whatever it is I'm asking from her myself? But if I do that how does she learn? A couple of times she's been so resistant to helping that we've had to use the bear hug.....which she hates and I'm almost convinced she sees as totally punitive despite the fact that I'm trying to talk gently to her and reassure her that she's not "in trouble". Is it normal for kids to have BIG FEELINGS when confronted with the Five Steps? How do you work the Five Steps when your child is melting down?

Blessings,
Kelly

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ArmsOfLove 04-07-2005 04:33 PM
Re: Am I working the five steps right?
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Some childen do have big feelings reactions to anything And at that age, sometimes helping *is* doing it for them. If you've recently stopped being punitive it might be a good idea to show her that grace and try to engage her in helping. Making things playful is one of my favorite aspects of GBD and relationship-focused parenting. What child won't want to get involved if her baby carriage is flying back to the bedroom carried by fairies

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kklibrarian 04-07-2005 05:01 PM
Re: Am I working the five steps right?
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Thanks, Crystal. That makes sense, and I'll try to remember to keep things light and playful when helping her. I'm also thinking that I need to work on things like posture and tone. The words I'm using may be more grace-based, but other things about my stance towards her might still be communicating punishment.

I'm full of so many questions right now. I think I've read all the stickies in this forum at least twice already.

Thanks again,
Kelly

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