Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

[Petie]

I should have seen this coming. I mean I was raised with this. So here is the scenario...

Mom---Lala will you please pick up your shoes and put them away
Lala---not right now
Mom---Lala I asked you to please pick up your shoes
Lala---Yes, and I said not right now
Mom---Lala, if you do not pick up your shoes then I'll throw them out
Lala----(obligingly picks up her shoes)
Mom---Now why did I have to threaten to get you to do what I asked?


At this point I stepped in. I really understood what Lala was doing and I figured Mom would figure this out, she didn't. OK so pet peeve of mine, don't make a request unless it is a REQUEST. If it REQUIRED then simply state it. Now don't get me wrong, I use please, thank you, etc with my kids when they are called for, but when it is a requirement, I don't ask, I state. Here's how it WOULD HAVE happened had it been me...

Me--Lala, pick up your shoes and put them away
Lala---yes, ma'am
Me---thank you

If she did say no, then I would have told her the probable consequence, but chances are, for something like that, she would have just done it. I explained this to mom and of course got the typical line I got as a child....

"if an authority asks politely it is the same thing as being told"

Sorry, but last job I had, if it was optional, it was a please. If she was asking for volunteers it was a please. But she never said, "OK well, would you all please clean up the kitchen, we have an inspection tomorrow?" Ummm, no, it was, "there is an inspection tomorrow and the kitchen needs to be cleaned. Thank you."

Am I completely insane? I mean, should Lala see this a request as a requirement?

[Abibigail]

Not insane. ITA w/you.

[ArmsOfLove]

That is why the 5 Steps are worded as they are

some children are able to be easily taught that please doesn't make it optional and I know that's important to some parents, when they are the parents and children together that is fine When the children aren't reading the same playbook then it gets tricky

IME when I get resistance I just stop and apologize for miscommunicating--then I explain that they need to do whatever and they do.

[Tasmanian Saint]

"if an authority asks politely it is the same thing as being told"

Then how does an authority say something when it *is* optional? Surely it happens sometimes...?

[rjy9343]

Originally Posted by Tasmanian Saint

Then how does an authority say something when it *is* optional? Surely it happens sometimes...?

I think that the mindset is that there is not an option when the authority speaks. Please or whatever is just being polite, but it does not mean that there is a choice in obeying.

[mamasara]

I have this same conversation all.the.time. :bangshead

DH will "ask" Monkey to do something, then get mad when she says no. You made it optional dude. what did you expect? It baffles him that the kids are more compliant with me than with him. But, it drives him absolutely crazy if I try to suggest a different way.

My mom has that same mindset as well. I think it has to do with the way that she was raised - children did not have the option of saying no, so the politeness was just a curtesy. She definitely has the mindset of "Do what I say, when I say it, without attitude or questioning, just because I said so" - (DH and I sometimes struggle with residuals of this from our childhoods as well )

[ThreeKids]

Originally Posted by Tasmanian Saint

Then how does an authority say something when it *is* optional? Surely it happens sometimes...?

My parents would have plainly said that it was optional or "only if you want to". They wouldn't have asked if it were a command, either, so there wasn't a chance for confusion.

[Bumblebee]

I don't think youre insane either....if it int optional you can't start with "will you..."

[BeckaBlue]

It drives E batty that I ask and accept no, AND that I tell without asking
It just makes sense to me.
I HATE when my kids get defensive when I asked them and they do say no. I tell them "I asked you a question. No is acceptable. There is no need for the attitude." When I tell and they say no I say "I didn't ask you, I told you. Now do it."

[stillsmallvoice]

Interesting discussion.
What about when they start telling you "Get me some juice." instead of asking you for juice?
I have looked at asking them to do things nicely as modeling how to be polite instead of bossy.

[TenderLovingWillow]

I am kindof confused now.

I usually state my words clearly in command tone, but I say please, because as stillsmallvoice said, its about being polite. It feels peaceful..

I have been experimenting at just stating what I want today.. And DH asked me why I was so snippy.

I said it with the same tone, just left off the please, and now I sound snippy?

I am not sure how I feel about this.

[Amazement]

I think the please/not please thing is a personal preference. I prefer saying please to dd, partly because I prefer it when people say please to me. If other people find that it confuses their kids, then I totally understand why they would leave it off. But I also think that at some point it's worth having a conversation with kids about how people communicate differently, and that for some people saying "please" or "will you please" means that they're trying to be polite and respectful to you, not that they're giving you options. Not in a "Look how poorly other people communicate" kind of way, but in a "Your life will be a whole lot easier if you learn how to deal with other people's communication styles" kind of way.

Of course that discussion would have to wait until kids are old enough to get it. I don't know when that would be. My oldest dd is only 2.5. We're still working on responding to requests with something other than a NOOOOOO and a meltdown.

---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 PM ----------

Originally Posted by stillsmallvoice

What about when they start telling you "Get me some juice." instead of asking you for juice?
I have looked at asking them to do things nicely as modeling how to be polite instead of bossy.

I say please to DD and she still says things like "Get me some juice." Then I tell her to try again and ask nicely. Maybe my modeling "please" to her makes it easier for her to understand why she has to ask "May I have some juice please?" On the other hand, it may also make it harder for her to understand why I can say no when she asks for juice, and she can't say no when I ask her to put away her shoes. There's just no getting around the fact that adults and kids are different. I have the authority to tell her that she has to put away her shoes, but she does not have the authority to tell me I have to give her juice. I can see why that could be confusing, but it's true and it's something I need to teach her as she get older.

[Petie]

Originally Posted by stillsmallvoice

Interesting discussion.
What about when they start telling you "Get me some juice." instead of asking you for juice?
I have looked at asking them to do things nicely as modeling how to be polite instead of bossy.

I guess that's where I watch what I demand my children to do. I don't say, "go get me some tea". I ask, if I want them to, for them to get me some tea. So they don't even think about demanding that I get them drink. When I do give commands, it's usually for them to clean up their own belongings, or for them to get ready for their activity. My kids hear plenty of pleases, but not for things that are non-negotiable.

For instance....

You need to pick up your shoes

Would you please help your brother get his shoes on

You will stop pulling the dogs tail

Would you please put some water down for the dog



See, for me, if it's optional, then they get the pleases and things in this house are rarely non-optional. Those are saved for very specific instances.

[MaryPoppinsIAin't]

I have spent twenty minutes trying to reword this so it doesn't sound snarky, but I can't seem to pull it off without changing what I want to say, sooo... Not being snarky, promise!!

Maybe it's just me, but I've always thought that most adults don't give kids near enough credit. Thinking that a toddler who is taught that instructions worded as commands are exactly that, commands, and instructions worded as questions are requests (ie, optional) will obviously grow into an adult who can't tell the difference between a friend's request and a boss's (or a cop's) politely worded instruction kinda seems up there with more mainstream folks who see a breast-feeding toddler and somehow extrapolate a breast-feeding twelve year old.

I'm still working on how it would all look in practice, exactly, but it seems to me that it should be possible to teach a child to be polite (and that parents always have the option of "no", while kids don't always have the option) while still telling when I mean "do it now" and asking when I mean "it's okay if you're busy".

The best teachers I ever had always established the rules, THEN eased up on the strict observance of formality. Taught the basics before things got complicated. Not the greatest analogy, but... identifying an instruction that was worded as a request seems like a secondary skill... so they might need to learn the primary skill of id'ing and following a plainly stated instruction first?

[Petie]

Originally Posted by MaryPoppinsIAin't

I have spent twenty minutes trying to reword this so it doesn't sound snarky, but I can't seem to pull it off without changing what I want to say, sooo... Not being snarky, promise!!

Maybe it's just me, but I've always thought that most adults don't give kids near enough credit. Thinking that a toddler who is taught that instructions worded as commands are exactly that, commands, and instructions worded as questions are requests (ie, optional) will obviously grow into an adult who can't tell the difference between a friend's request and a boss's (or a cop's) politely worded instruction kinda seems up there with more mainstream folks who see a breast-feeding toddler and somehow extrapolate a breast-feeding twelve year old.

I'm still working on how it would all look in practice, exactly, but it seems to me that it should be possible to teach a child to be polite (and that parents always have the option of "no", while kids don't always have the option) while still telling when I mean "do it now" and asking when I mean "it's okay if you're busy".

The best teachers I ever had always established the rules, THEN eased up on the strict observance of formality. Taught the basics before things got complicated. Not the greatest analogy, but... identifying an instruction that was worded as a request seems like a secondary skill... so they might need to learn the primary skill of id'ing and following a plainly stated instruction first?

I didn't take it as snarky. I do understand what you're saying. I think what really gets me though, is knowing that saying please isn't helping and yet turning around saying that there basically isn't any time when a child can say "no" to an adult. This is how I was raised which may be why it hits me wrong to see it happen in my own home. I have noticed that many here have ways that their children know the difference. Mine don't, and for that matter, I have trouble with the difference. It does make life hard when a boss asks me nicely to do something, and I feel that I HAVE TO SAY YES. I was raised that when an authority asks, that is the same as an order. So, my job consisted of me doing every single volunteer job that there was, "hey would you mind taking on the grocery shopping for the shelter". "Yeah, no problem." And I find myself lugging two shopping carts that are overflowing through wal-mart to get enough groceries for the shelter. "hey, can you come in on Saturday to help fix the bunk beds?" "Sure, no problem." And I end up going into work on Sunday with blisters on my hands and exhausted. I don't want my children to be the kind that don't know when to say "no". I guess we all have our own pet peeves, which is why I listed this as MY pet peeve. I understand that others won't see it the same, or have ways to differentiate. But saying that because my children understand communication in my home only is also faulty. They go to school, I'm sure each of their teachers has a different method of communication that they learn from. But in our home, if it is phrased a request, "no" is an acceptable option. This bothered me because it happened in MY home. After explaining it to my mom, she has adjusted how she deals with the kids.



P.S. I also definitely didn't mean for this to come off as snarky, I hope it didn't.