dealing with defiance or ?

[saturnfire16]

Do they have a time and a place where they *can* be physical? How about a set of foam or blow up boxing gloves that they can use with supervision.

[deena]

Great idea, Emily!
A natural consequence to playing inappropriately would be separating the two. One can watch TV, one play outside or something like that.

[greenishmama]

Originally Posted by saturnfire16

Do they have a time and a place where they *can* be physical? How about a set of foam or blow up boxing gloves that they can use with supervision.

when we see they are wanting (or already are) playing crazy and physical we send them up to their room where they have a queen size mattress on the floor and their two beds and more space (it's a large room). they go up there and shut the door and we don't really know what they do but there is some thuds, laughing, yelling, sometimes crying, but then often more laughing, etc. occasionally it all ends badly but they usually seem to work through the crying when doing this. (they sometimes seem to do better without our supervision- if we are there they'll get mad at the other over an accident but if we are not right there they often work through it. but only during these seemingly special times. not over lego's etc. )

[saturnfire16]

So could you redirect the butt smacking game to "go roughhouse upstairs," and talk to the older one at a separate time about constructive ways to deal with his anger if he is angry at his brother and wanting to hurt him?

[greenishmama]

Originally Posted by saturnfire16

So could you redirect the butt smacking game to "go roughhouse upstairs," and talk to the older one at a separate time about constructive ways to deal with his anger if he is angry at his brother and wanting to hurt him?

sometimes that would work. other times it's like during lunch or getting ready to get out the door, etc. and they aren't always both in that special mood where it goes well. we can tell when they need that crazy time upstairs. this other game is so random and that is why it ends in tears often.

[deena]

This doesn't answer your questions but it is worth noting- a really good rule to have is that if someone says "stop", you must immediately stop.

[ArmsOfLove]

I would consider instituting a no touch rule until they can figure out how to touch appropriately.

But with things like the play hitting on the butt thing there is no preventing it. It just happens when one walks by the other even if I'm write there between or practically touching them.

In those cases I stop them and state what happened and the one who wronged the other needs to make amends. That might mean doing something kind for them, or using gentle touches to help them, or stating 3 or more things about them that they appreciate.

Outside energy gets moved outside where there is more room. We're having a hard time with this because it's over 110 most days and the back yard here is just dirt

And I try to remember it's hard - and they will grow out of it. It really does get easier (or at least different )

[Beth1231]

I use Siblings Without Rivalry for situations like the butt smacking game. My 3 and7 year old will be happily playing,the phyical aspect starts to ramp up and I stay close enough to comment on what I see/hear. As soon as I hear distress,I comment. "I see one child laughing and the other sad/angry/saying no". The game is only okay if BOTH people are having fun." And if they don't split within the ext two seconds or so,I instruct them where to go. One to the couch an the other to a chair is usually enough for them to reset. It's not time-out. It's just long enough for me to make sure the house rule has been communicated and that amends can be made,if necessary.
On the defiance thing. It seems counterintuitive,but when one of my kids seems to be really resisting me(that is the word I use in my head),I make time in my day to reconnect with them on their terms. Spending time with them,being as affectionate as they allow and just listening. Usually,my seven year old will tell me why she was angry or something I did or said that upset her. Then I can make amends. And she feels loved and heard and most of the time,the resistance to requests disappears. On those days when it's a child being a child,I keep them close by,briefly let them know why I'm keeping them close by an then (counterintuitive again) consciously use that time to reconnect,play,listen. That reduces the struggle of "Mom is trying to keep me near,how can I slip away" dynamic.
I grew up watching my father be defiant and rebellious to pretty much anyone he viewed as trying to tell him what to do. It was fear,immaturity and the desire to be respected/important. He lacked the tools to gauge the other persons true intent. With enough time,patience and teaching,a child can learn the skills to regulate their behavior. Connection than correction.

[CelticJourney]

Originally Posted by greenishmama

when we see they are wanting (or already are) playing crazy and physical we send them up to their room where they have a queen size mattress on the floor and their two beds and more space (it's a large room). they go up there and shut the door and we don't really know what they do but there is some thuds, laughing, yelling, sometimes crying, but then often more laughing, etc. occasionally it all ends badly but they usually seem to work through the crying when doing this. (they sometimes seem to do better without our supervision- if we are there they'll get mad at the other over an accident but if we are not right there they often work through it. but only during these seemingly special times. not over lego's etc. )

Just an additional perspective - they may be getting the wrong message with that. They may be internalizing 'we can be as physical as we want - they don't care and they don't even know'. When you allow a totally 'adult free' physical dynamic, it might be hard for them to accept a boundary at other times.