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Old 07-18-2006, 10:18 AM   #16
Aisling
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Default Re: I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

This thread is such a blessing Thanks!

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Old 07-18-2006, 10:46 AM   #17
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Default Re: I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

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So I walked with him, held his shoulders, and he apologized and asked forgiveness of his aunt. Then I took him and hugged him and told him how proud I was of him, asked if his heart now felt clean or dirty, and then helped him find some yummy treat that he could eat. I also reflected and affirmed how important it is for kids his age to have treats and said that I would try harder to make even more treats or arrange for yummy stuff in our daily lives and at parties especially.
This story has me
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Old 07-18-2006, 10:57 AM   #18
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Default Re: I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

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I would be doing some major character training I would be reading stories with morals, talking about consequences, sitting with them and setting consequences and then imposing them. I encounter this with my 8yo. I do try to remember that 8-10 is *pre* logic so they are *starting* to get it--not totally getting it yet. And I totally see the difference in what it looks like when my 8yo does something as opposed to that same child wen he was 7. Ames and Ilg does have "Your 8/9/10 year old" because these are still very foundational developmental years.

Thjis is the time I'm talking to my 8yo about the man he wants to become. I'm talking about developing good, Godly habits. I sat and talked to him about how God wants him to honor his father and mother because it makes things good for HIM--not for me. That I want him to honor me because God wants him to honor me because, like God, *I* want what is best for HIM! We've talked about what is sin, we've talked about how he was born with a sin nature that inclines him towards wanting to do what he wants but God wants him to learn how to live a holy and Godly life and that means not pursuing that sin. One example I've shared before was when he, a few times when we were out, sneaked food he had been told was not for him. The time he did it in his aunt and uncle's home and she told me (she wasn't upset because it was food for the party but she was concerned because she knew he wasn't supposed to have it and she said when she walked into the room where he was alone he jumped, looked guilty, and then threw it away saying he was done and getting rid of it" So I took him outside and we sat for a minute and I confronted him--speaking the truth in love. I told him that I knew what he had done, and told him what he'd done, and asked him to admit it which he did. Then I explained what sin is--that impulse he feels to do what he wants even when he knows not to. I asked how he feels when he gives in to that--we talked about feeling dirty in your heart because you have done something wrong and need to hide it, how it separates us because he is worried about me finding out. I prompted him with questions, talked about parables and teachings of Jesus.
Well. . . .we do that. It looks *very* much like that at our house -- until we get to the 'asking forgiveness' part. I even use shows on TV to discuss things. Movies that are good for us were Disney's Little Mermaid (and I read them the original story, also, in which she dies for her disobedience), Finding Nemo, books like Aesop's Fables, the Greek and Roman myths -- things like that. Hercules was very good. .. .how he gave his life for another (or tried to). The pull for them seems to be way too strong. They'll even say that they couldn't help it (I believe them). . . .but will *not* accept that they could try. But, when I tell them what we need to do to make amends or ask forgiveness or some such. . .they will actually scream and try to run away! And I do not believe in forcing apologies.

I need to try and think about an example. About what was done, and then what I did about it. And then maybe you can tell me why I can't get through to them . ..why I'm failing. It's got to be in some detail I'm missing. . .. . .
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Old 07-18-2006, 11:00 AM   #19
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Default Re: I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

Ok, so in essence are you saying that behavior training (i.e. specifics) and character training (motives) each work better when you work on them at separate times?

This makes a lot of sense, since it separates the action and the emotions from the intellectual understanding. You can't expect a kid to philosophize on something when they are upset or when you are upset.

And instead, punitive measures would be trying to moosh the two together, which would cause confusion....am I being punished for WHAT i did or for WHY (mommy assumes) I did it... which to me seems like it would incite MORE rule-testing

Plus a little toddler won't understand the whole "motive" thing anyway, so why should they be expected to understand it when they are at their most emotionally unstable?

Interesting. Thanks for the post, Crystal!!

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Old 07-18-2006, 11:05 AM   #20
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Default Re: I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

Is dh modelling appropriate behavior or addressing it in the same way you are?

And DixieKitten Think about how Jesus would hear the disciples doing or talking about something wrong and rather than addressing what they did he would tell them a parable And then when they were in the moment of wrong behavior he would stop them, but lessons would come at differen times. For example--how Jesus taught them about children. When they were keeping the children away from them he said, "Hey, knock it off, let them come to me!" And at other times he talked about coming to him like a little child, and how the kingdom of God is like a little child, and how what we do to the least of these we do to him
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Old 07-18-2006, 11:17 AM   #21
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Default Re: I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

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Is dh modelling appropriate behavior or addressing it in the same way you are?
No. His remark is *always* "You need to show 'em who's boss and give them a spanking!" or, "They need a good spanking!" or something like that. When we're together, he backs off completely and I need to deal with everything. By that time (when he's gotten home from work), I'm usually not a very good example of GBD (I'm tired and stressed out). He also 'vents' on them. "How can you be so stupid!" and things like that. His expectations are very high. . .and he gets extremely frustrated when they don't act the way he thinks they should be acting for their ages. He also does the "witholding" thing. . . if dd is having a fit, he refuses to pick her up or hold her when she asks. He says that he will "not reward that behaviour!". He does have a softer spot for her than he does for the boys. . . .and is more patient and 'nicer' to her. . . and she's the best-behaved one! So, anyway. So. . .this is a 'character training' issue, then, and not really 'defiance'?
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Old 07-18-2006, 11:32 AM   #22
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Default Re: I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

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Originally Posted by Chris3jam
I can understand with little children. But, what about older kids? Like. . .8 and 9 and 10? The ones that you can actually see thinking about it. . . and then they decide that they'll do it anyway. You can *see* the little wheels turning. The ones that say, "But I wanted to do it anyway, and so I did!" I understand that they wanted to do it. . . but it was *wrong*!
In our family, this is where logical/natural consequences come into play. First of all, I should say that I don't really think my older children do things defiantly. I don't see it that way, anyway. Do they sometimes do things I specifically told them not to do? Sure! Did they do it thinking, "Mom told me not to do XYZ, but I don't care. I'm going to, anyway." No. It usually comes from a place of impulse control or just simply getting carried away and forgetting.

But whatever the reason for the "disobedience", the consequences (natural and/or logical) are the same. We wouldn't add a consequence for the act of defiance.

An example. My oldest son (14) has an AirSoft BB gun with which he likes to target shoot. DH and I have specifically told him that he is never, ever to shoot when any small children are around b/c he can't trust small children to stay behind him when he shoots. One day I was out watching him shoot. A small neighbor child walked into the empty lot near where he was shooting. He saw him and shot anyway. Now, I know my son's heart, and I know for sure that he didn't defy me. He just got carried away, as 14 y/o boys sometimes do, and just didn't think. Still, the consequence for being unsafe with the gun was losing his gun for a while. It doesn't matter why he did what he did. He was unsafe and from the time he got the gun, he knew that ownership of the gun came with the condition that he would always use it safely. Am I making any sense at all? LOL!

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Old 07-18-2006, 12:05 PM   #23
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Default Re: I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

Actually, I've had my boys tell me that. They've said, "I know what you said. . . .I don't care. I really want to ________" What's scaring me is that I don't know their hearts anymore. What I'm seeing now is just not good.
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Old 07-18-2006, 12:37 PM   #24
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Default Re: I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

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Originally Posted by DixieKitten
Ok, so in essence are you saying that behavior training (i.e. specifics) and character training (motives) each work better when you work on them at separate times?

This makes a lot of sense, since it separates the action and the emotions from the intellectual understanding. You can't expect a kid to philosophize on something when they are upset or when you are upset.

And instead, punitive measures would be trying to moosh the two together, which would cause confusion....am I being punished for WHAT i did or for WHY (mommy assumes) I did it... which to me seems like it would incite MORE rule-testing

Plus a little toddler won't understand the whole "motive" thing anyway, so why should they be expected to understand it when they are at their most emotionally unstable?

Interesting. Thanks for the post, Crystal!!

Yes, this is good stuff...........I think will all the paridymn shifting, this is the hardest point for me........the "they are not TRYING to irk me off". I agree that Kyle is still very young, it hard to remember sometimes........Thanks to all you ladies, this is really helping me process this!
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Old 07-18-2006, 01:40 PM   #25
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Default Re: I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

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Originally Posted by akmyilee
Yes, this is good stuff...........I think will all the paridymn shifting, this is the hardest point for me........the "they are not TRYING to irk me off". I agree that Kyle is still very young, it hard to remember sometimes........Thanks to all you ladies, this is really helping me process this!
Another thing to think about -- suppose they are trying to make you mad. How is it in your best interest to play that game? If DD doesn't want to clean up, I can make it about fighting with her, and she's fine with that, suits her to a T. But the room doesn't get clean. Or I can make it about cleaning up, which is what *I* want.

If something is defiance, the last thing you want to do is meet it head-on. That just feeds it.
The opposite of defiance is not more defiance! It's cooperation.

So once again -- defiance, rule-testing, lack of impulse control, pure accident -- I don't care, not useful. The useful thing to do is deal with the situation and work separately later to prevent a recurrence.
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Old 07-18-2006, 02:15 PM   #26
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Default Re: I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

Right - that's what hit me - you want to find out what causes the "defiance"...AND address the resulting behaviour. If I can find out the root cause, I can deal with the external behaviour more appropriately and with much more compassion and calmness on my part.
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Old 07-18-2006, 02:19 PM   #27
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Default Re: I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

Right--and, at the same time, while age expected or age appropriate isn't an excuse for misbehavior (I still address and work with the behavior) if something is universally associated with a certain age group then it's unrealistic to expect otherwise from your child of that age I mean, if ALL 2 year olds look at you and do what they've been told not to do then there must be something else going on there than the idea that all 2yo's are evil and villianous and out to get their parents In fact, if you read about what is going on developmentally with 2yo's it makes total sense that they are doing this
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Old 07-18-2006, 02:33 PM   #28
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Default Re: I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

Ok, well this is where I get confused..........because I shouldn't be focusing on the why of the situation, the reaction is the same......you spill the cereal --- we clean it up......regardless of the reason taht they spilt it BUT at the same time, I do want to get to the root of the issue, if there is an issue, maybe part of it is that I am making issues where there is none.......or better yet, maybe the issue is ME and my reaction.......what has really impacted me is the "people behave well that feel well" thought. This feels like a catch 22 to me??? Am I just confused?
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Old 07-18-2006, 02:41 PM   #29
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Default Re: I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

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This feels like a catch 22 to me???
I'm confused--not sure what you're thinking is a catch 22
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Old 07-18-2006, 03:56 PM   #30
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Default Re: I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

Sorry, I am totally not making sense.........

ok, I am suppose to think about the reason behind the action/behavior but it isn't suppose to matter what the reason for the behavior is because the response, from me, is the same.

In the cereal example..........it doesn't matter if the spill is from an accident or from anger or whatever, my response is still "ok, you spilled, lets clean up" I TOTALLY get that.

But in other treads and other conversations we (GCMers) spend a lot of time talking about the reason behind the behavior and getting to the reason and "fixing" that issue will improve the behavior.

So how does that fit in the whole "defiance" issue?

I *think* that what Chrystal said in the first post is what I need to focus on here.......maybe that it doesn't need "fixing" because it is developmental ( like a toddler exploring or a 4yo questioning) OR like someone else said about it could be an organic issue (like they are tired, hungry, etc.) OR that it is an issue with the way that I am responding to them or that I haven't spent enough time or filled the child's love tank.

Are we saying that there is NO direct defiance? like it doesn't exist? Or maybe that their is defiance but it is just a symptom of another thing, like I talked about in the last paragraph? and the defiance causes the inappropriate behavior but you have to get to the root of the defiance not just the behavior?

I visualize it like this:

drops cereal on the floor when I asked him to be careful -----> Defiant attitude -----> didn't get a good nights sleep

And the lack of the good nights sleep is what we should focus on.

I am not saying for sure that I am with this idea. Just thinking outloud now that ya'll have me thinking

Thanks for working with me to sort this out ya'll. I started a blog post about 2 weeks ago about Direct defiance as it seems to keep coming up IRL issues for me, and couldn't finish it because I wasn't sure how to explain it all or what I thought.........sorry, that is OT but I just wanted to explain more about why I am picking ya'lls brains like this........I don't disagree with what you are saying I just don't fulling undersand *why* I agree that direct defiance isn't or shouldn't be a mindset that we put ourselves in. One of my big issues is pitting parents against their kids and this seems to be the place where the rubber meets the road when I start to talk about the adversarial parenting stuff.
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