Am I permissive or is this normal?

[MariJo7]

When I was little my mom allowed me to paint and draw on the wall . Not everywhere, but in one room. Mom had attached plain white paper on the wall and I could draw on it as much as I liked. Of course Iäm thinking of your rented house and perhaps it is not possible or practical to do the same. How about putting a huge piece of paper or cardboard on the floor? Little kids like to draw with their whole bodies. They start to appreciate pen and paper when they are little older but 3 and 3yo rather do it big. Their fine motorical skills are not yet fully developed.

[Bea423]

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

All normal, but, yes, some of the response sounds permissive.

What are you proactively doing to address these things?

And, no, spankings don't stop 2 and 3 yo's from being 2 and 3 - they just get out all the rage building up in you and calm you down. Much better to address both issues and channel them into healthy releases and invite some peace into your home

What sounds permissive? What would you suggest?

With rude words I script or ignore, depending on whats happening. With coloring I have removed al coloring, I put up the toys that are used to scrape the wall. I try to catch them before it happens. We stick to a bedtime routine and end up laying with them for 2 hrs till they sleep. All other options have failed despite weeks of consistency.

Originally Posted by HomeWithMyBabies

You have three? Are they all under three? A three year old and a two year old is pretty intense I would imagine.

What makes you think the behavior would have stopped by now if you were using punitive measures?

I expect a certain level of respectful speech and behavior from my kids but I do not expect them to accomplish it without any prompting at that age. Reflecting their emotions and offering a more appropriate way to phrase their expression will reinforce what you want them to do rather than focusing on the things you want to discourage. It does take some time, and you have to look at the behaviors as what they are, inadequate tools for self expression.

Clean up involved some hand over hand participation on my part at that age, when playful parenting didn't get the job done. If it was too difficult, such as a particular game with too many pieces, we packed it away and tried again in a few weeks or months. It's ok to say this certain toy is adding too much stress to the household so we all need a break from it.

Are they napping? When bedtime takes that long I start to reevaluate the usefulness of naps. It is a hard transition and takes several months to drop naps IME, but I have heard this from all manner of parenting styles. Are they getting morning sunshine and lots of exercise? That helps so much.

Yes, 3 years old, 2 years old and 12 weeks old. Eek, I love every second but Im a smidge overwhelmed!

I think I just feel like nothing is motivating change in some area. Like for example, the coloring. Yes, I think that spanking a couple times would motivate them to NOT color on the wall. But, that being said. I was feeling VERY emotional while writing this and while I have messed up in that area, I am not about to go to spanking. I am working constantly to learn more about how to parent gently but firmly. I grew up in a punitive permissive home, so I feel like Im completely reinventing the wheel!

That is what I do, hand over hand or we simply "pause" the day until we clean up. I always help, usually do most of it. I simply feel participation is needed. We have minimal toys. I guess maybe Im just hoping that he wont require me to hand over hand it EVERY SINGLE TIME. Why isn't it getting easier?

Originally Posted by Aerynne

With getting dressed I use a lot of "As soon as you are dressed, we will. . . " then I don't fight them on it. It might be a trip, an activity, or simply a meal or a snack.
.

I do this, it was more the attitude that bothered me. I script, but wasn't sure how to handle the yelling and the door slamming.

Originally Posted by kdhfly

As others have said, some specifics might help with the bed time thing. With my first three at those ages, I thought I might go crazy at bedtime. I wish I had just relaxed and gone with the flow more (ie wait until they are actually tired before starting bed). I *thought* I had tried that a few times, but I didn't actually do it enough times in a row to figure out their tired cues .

I have figured out recently that waking them earlier at a consistent time (and it takes minimally 10 days, maybe more, to see a difference) also helps move bedtime to the time I would rather it be. BUT, for that to work, I need to be going to bed early enough so I don't feel crabby.

Here are some other things we have done at various points: lie there quietly with them...sharing a room with a sibling or sleeping on the floor in our room (too scary by yourself at that age!), water bottles by the bed. Mostly, a huge dose of "they are still very little and really need help falling asleep" patience and compassion...easier said than done.

For hitting/pushing/etc.... When we were in an apartment w
e got a fold-up play set thing. Even a little slide might help. My almost-three-year-old is a hitter, and he is finally starting to grow out of it with lots of redirection.

My kids wake between 630-7 so I don't want to wake them earlier. My 2 year old naps from noon to 2, sometimes 11-1. My 3 year old sometimes naps, but I don't put him down after 1 if he does. My husband works late so If I put them to bed before 7 they will not see him, he goes to work at 530 so they miss him at breakfast too.

Our routine:
Dinner, play with daddy, 8ish we do tooth brushing, 2 stories, lay with them until they sleep about 2 hours later. Pretty simple! They share a room so they are not alone. We have tried separate beds and they prefer together, but fall asleep separate, if that makes sense? We are exhausted... I don't want to keep laying with them. I like super nannys approach.. but its too CIO for my comfort level. Not really sure how to shorten the time it takes. It doesn't matter how early or late we put them to bed.

Originally Posted by gdzprncess

So... Why do you believe in GBD? It's been said many times on this board that 3 is really what makes you put your money where your mouth is.

Consequences are very much a part of gentle parenting. I'm wondering if you feel like gentle parenting means they won't get upset? They will. Often.

Troubleshooting: how often are y'all getting out of the house? Are you able to separate/contain at least one child at a time? What type of support do you have? Are they eating regularly? Do y'all have a routine?

Specifically addressing the scenarios (these are suggestions only, based on my experiences):

#3 You hit, you sit. If you both hit, you both sit. Hitting is never acceptable. Removal from the situation can be plan A instead of the last resort. Is there something they enjoy doing together? Do more of that.

#2 Ignore or rescript rudeness, but don't take it personally. A 3 year old is all over the emotional map, regardless of how reasonable or logical you are. Or cheery for that matter. Meltdown? To be regularly expected. So for stuff like getting dressed, brushing teeth, taking bath, going potty - all of which DS hated and resisted, I simply did, you can do it or I can do it. No answer? Okay, I'll help you do it.

I believe in GBD for so many reasons... I believe its biblical, I believe its respectful, I believe it is in line with how the Father teaches us. Honestly, I don't really want to start spanking. When I feel lost and unsure of how to parent or instruct... That's when I'm tempted. I am fully aware this is simply because I am still learning the "tools".

Yes... I think sometimes if the reactions is really big, I do feel that Im doing something wrong. Like if I can see his heart is genuinely broken over my limit (reasonable limit) I doubt myself and then seek to compromise when I wouldn't normally. I am ok with emotions... but the ones that are particularly big I do struggle. Anger is a huge trigger and "mommy no, please... insert begging here" and I then wonder if Im not showing compassion. So, that is where I see permissiveness but Im unsure of when to bend and when not to.

Questions for you. Please explain the difference between "you hit you sit" and timeout. This still doesn't make sense to me. Give me details of what this looks like, including the immediate response "ok mom I wont hit... mom I wont hit!!! I don't want to sit!!!" Which to me then is like "ok do I let him get up? If I make him keep sitting is this now time out??"

Your second suggestion drives home my concern for emotion. I *do* hold limits quite well for things like getting dressed, brushing teeth... Its thinks that generate big fits (can't think of a single example at the moment...) things that would fall under "discipline" verses normal life limits, where I then think "maybe Im being to rigid, to stern... Is this really fair.. I've really upset him, maybe I need to rethink this..". ETA: Thought of some... Like, Yes I am going to SIT in the room instead of lay with you... "mommy no! please lay with me MOMMY!!!! Im scared. Its dark (the have a decent night light and I sit close to the bed where they can fully see me). MOMMY IM CRYING FOR YOU PLEASE COME HERE!!!!" Then Im instantly in wow, im a dirt bag. my poor child, am I being insensitive? Is this fair, that Im just sitting close instead of laying? Maybe hes genuinely panicked and Im just being cold". Things like this, I DONT KNOW what to do.

Originally Posted by CelticJourney

What does this mean?

I sport cast whats happening "s has the toy, you want it." "You are angry because..."

---------- Post added at 07:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 PM ----------

Originally Posted by jenny_islander

Re drawing on the wall: The Devil finds work for idle hands. This is the time for things that can be mauled, squashed, smeared, bounced, jumped on, thrown, etc., without actually damaging the house. Those soft blocks that are sold for babies? They got a huge workout at 3. So did rain sticks (Noise! Repeatable noise!), putting big sheets of newsprint on the floor and handing them washable "toddler" crayons (they would just snap the regular fat kind to hear the noise), and turning on inane annoying songs for dancing. Also soft bouncy balls, anything that wobbled or twirled or could be led around on a leash or pushed, and those ridey toys that sit in one place and let you bounce on them. I never tried bath crayons, but I've heard good things about them. Also bath colors, bubble baths with lots of suds for making hats (get a small mirror), etc. Ooo, and big squishy sponges!


2. Declaring that Mr. Toy is tired of being fought over and will go up on the shelf now.

3. Regular meals, naps, and drinks. Kids do get hangry. And thangry. And tangry.


Re bedtime: Oh, goodness. This is beyond my experience. Messing around forEVer was a thing, but not crying and clawing at the door. It sounds like something is causing a feeling of insecurity--no, of fear.

Those are great ideas! I know they are a little bored, we are working on increasing our sensory outlet option supply lol They regularly play with a rice bucket and in the bathtub with anything that will dissolve. I will use some of these!

#2 Ok, so in my response to all the suggestions I hit on my confusion about certain emotions. This would be one of those times... "You are having a hard time playing together with this toy. I will put it up and we will try again later." Instant meltdown of epic heart breaking proportions. Begging, sobbing... And I think to myself... "Maybe I should let them try again... Is this too harsh...?

#3 HA! That made me laugh

And for bedtime... Yes, that is what always keeps us from moving forward. We are so confused as to how to move forward in bedtime. He will stop as soon as the lights are on, but will refuse to stay in bed if the lights are on because its LIGHT. He cries and cries if we don't lay with him, even if we are sitting up in bed right next to him he cries. I do not force them to sleep alone with the door shut, but if they wont go to sleep, we do have them play quietly in their room sometimes if WE need to cool off which happens with the light ON and the door CLOSED. He wants out of the room so will begin sobbing and trying to open the door. We crack it and he ends up continually coming out. We don't know anymore if this is genuine panic or just big emotion to validate but hold firm... Or what. We pray, shine lights... I was very afraid of the dark as a child, horribly afraid. So I am VERY sensitive to that. I just don't know.

[Llee]

For the light thing, we got our daughter a sea salt lamp and she loooves going to sleep with that on.

[Mother of Sons]

The fact that they cry doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong. Kids cry. They wail and they are loud and they can make you feel like the biggest meanie in the world but it doesn't mean you are. It just means they don't know how to express themselves better yet. Do t make any decisions based on crying.

[OnAMission]

We have had great success with gates instead of closed doors...being able to see/hear helps reduce the fear factor ( even if they still don't want to be confined).

[ArmsOfLove]

All other options have failed despite weeks of consistency.

Nothing you do is going to change their ages or maturity

I would step back and try viewing this from a year's of consistency perspective. I set the rules and the standard and help them live up to it (more I uphold the standard whether they do it, I help them do it, or I just do it myself - I am modeling that the standard is consistent).

When things are done they need to be "fixed" - so messes get cleaned up, rudeness is apologized for and amends made, wrongs get righted, etc.

As for the bedtime routine . . . difficulty sleeping can be related to food sensitivities (specifically dairy). Have you suspected something like that? Also, there is no one right answer so I would encourage you to really look at what is going on and adapt. It might be that you just wait this out and do the best you can, or you may need to drop everything from the "routine" and just do those during the evening as part of your evening and then announce time for bed when it is *only* time for bed. When we had challenges with it I determined to just sit and watch tv with them laying next to me and turned away from the tv - and they did fall asleep. And I was less stressed.

As for You Hit, You Sit, it was discussed here http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...d.php?t=114884

[mamacat]

Agree with just sometimes having to wait it out and do best to make less upset and tension in meantime. My gdd couldnt go in kitchen by herself at age 3 and my dd had to borrow baby gates to remind her of areas off limits w/o mommy. Its not that you dont stop reinforcing correct positive behavior but you also have to not expect it to really happen right now until they develop more

[bentlaj11]

Just out of curiosity, what happens if you lay down w/ him? Does he settle down and sleep? My 4 (almost 5 y/o) just now can fall asleep w/out someone right next to him... and DH or I still have to be in the room, and he often wants me to hold his hand. I don't think that's a discipline thing as much as a personality/maturity thing. I don't think (and maybe I'm wrong) that it's bad to snuggle w/ your LO while they fall asleep. Sorry if I missed it if you already answered that part!

[saturnfire16]

You could also let them paint in the bathtub. They can paint all over the shower walls and their bodies and it comes off easily with a spray from the shower head.

[MegMarch]

I don't have much to offer for what to do But I can tell you that what helps me figure out parenting stuff sometimes is stopping with the "is this working" question. Because what I want "working" to mean is that my daughter will immediately do what I say and when I say it. Which would be handy but it's not my primary parenting goal.

If I can step back and ask myself "is this the way I believe I should relate to my child" I can make better decisions. That doesn't mean she is always happy or that I am. But it helps me move out of battles for control to problem solving, meeting needs (those of our whole family) and teaching.

[Soliloquy]

I don't have much to add in addition to what's already been posted. But, I hope this encourages you. My eldest was a VERY dramatic toddler. Oh my, sometimes it would take 2 hours for her to get dressed, she was a night owl, things were very intense. People used to give me those looks while I carried her, mid-tantrum, out of the store to the car.

She is now 10 and every adult loves her. She is helpful, she shows initiative, she is a great older sister, etc. People ask me when she'll be old enough to babysit because they want her around their kids.

It is rough when you have that many little ones. You are outnumbered and it is hard not to let their emotions get to you when they have so many about every little thing!

[saturnfire16]

Originally Posted by MegMarch

I don't have much to offer for what to do But I can tell you that what helps me figure out parenting stuff sometimes is stopping with the "is this working" question. Because what I want "working" to mean is that my daughter will immediately do what I say and when I say it. Which would be handy but it's not my primary parenting goal.

If I can step back and ask myself "is this the way I believe I should relate to my child" I can make better decisions. That doesn't mean she is always happy or that I am. But it helps me move out of battles for control to problem solving, meeting needs (those of our whole family) and teaching.

Yah, I second this! I try to remember to ask myself if I am modeling the behavior I want to see, if I am treating my child with kindness, and if what I am doing will help them learn the skills they need as an adult (and try to remember it might take that many years to learn some of them!)

---------- Post added at 07:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Soliloquy

I don't have much to add in addition to what's already been posted. But, I hope this encourages you. My eldest was a VERY dramatic toddler. Oh my, sometimes it would take 2 hours for her to get dressed, she was a night owl, things were very intense. People used to give me those looks while I carried her, mid-tantrum, out of the store to the car.

She is now 10 and every adult loves her. She is helpful, she shows initiative, she is a great older sister, etc. People ask me when she'll be old enough to babysit because they want her around their kids.

It is rough when you have that many little ones. You are outnumbered and it is hard not to let their emotions get to you when they have so many about every little thing!

And for some more encouragement, this is my 8 year old too. When she was 4... oh my! Some of it was algergies, some personality, some lack of maturity, some sensory issues, some... I have no idea what. But it was very rough for several years. Now I am always told how polite and kind and helpful she is. She is very responsible.

And I'm right back there with my current 3 year old, but with a bit more perspective.

[Bea423]

So, I hung out with a mom of 6 yesterday. I don't know if they spank, but overall what I observed was very respectful, connected and gentle parenting. Her youngest is 3 1/2 and I saw many of the same behaviors. All of her children were quite well behaved, worked problems out, traded for toys... There was minimal arguing if you could call it that. All of that to say... Im actually not permissive, and Im doing pretty good. I needed that perspective. I needed to know that my sons 3 year old behavior was normal and that it is part of his development. That he WILL learn and grow out of it, I just need to keep the course and hunker down lol.

It is hard because I don't know anyone who does this in person. My husbands family was extremely punitive and my mom was punitive but extremely permissive. LOL.

I do need help with the crayon issue. I am not sure what to do about toys carving into the wall and furniture. I surpervise them as much as possible, but I go pee, grab a glass of water, walk in to pick up the baby from nap... And that's when it happens. What can I do? I is not actually doable to drag them into each room with me all day every day, never having a single moment to themselves. What would be a good consequence? So far this morning Ive put up all the metal airplanes.

Thanks everyone!

---------- Post added at 07:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:03 AM ----------

Oh, the other thing that helped is acknowledging that I don't want to hurt my kids. When they seem hurt by a limit, not just upset by it, I question myself hugely. I think now that I know that, I can more firmly hold a limit confidently, realizing that they need me to hold the limit. I think that's going to take some more practice! How do you know when its a good time to compromise and when its not?

[RealLifeMama]

Originally Posted by Bea423

I do need help with the crayon issue. I am not sure what to do about toys carving into the wall and furniture. I surpervise them as much as possible, but I go pee, grab a glass of water, walk in to pick up the baby from nap... And that's when it happens. What can I do? I is not actually doable to drag them into each room with me all day every day, never having a single moment to themselves. What would be a good consequence? So far this morning Ive put up all the metal airplanes.

We do not have crayons for littles anymore.
At all. We only have super duper washable supplies.
We take the toys, as you have done. It is less of a consequence for teaching as it is just a proactive response to make sure they do not continue. I think kids like to carve into things absentmindedly.
Anyway, a nice little script about respecting our things and keeping things nice, then something about how if they are going to destroy our stuff with that toy, that toy is going away. They won't "get it", but after 1000 times, they might start to understand "keep stuff nice", even if they do not have the impulse control or the presence of mind to actually make that connection yet.
Why I think kids do it absentmindedly....

When I was 8, I was in a church daycare. There were many rooms we were allowed to play in, and they had linoleum tiles. down by some black stuff. One tile in the corner was broken. I picked up a broken piece and started to scrape it against the edge of another, and up the tile popped! I just kept doing it until I had popped up half the tiles in the room. I was not thinking about what I was doing, and I was *8*!! If someone had asked me if I thought it was OK to destroy the floor at the church, I'd say "Oh, no, that is not OK." But, I did not even make that connection.

[MariJo7]

How about "interrogating" the toys, when there is a new scratch on the wall or something? The children could even play the "police" and help to find the "guilty" toy:"Kids, please, help mommy to find out which aeroplane/car/doll/teddybear has made this scratch on mummy's wall?" And when the guilty toy is found, it should make "amends". You could ask the children how that should happen. Somehow, the kids could be involved into "protecting" your property.

And of course, no punitive actions, not even to toys. They should be brought to "justice" and made "responsible" in a constructive way. And the children may help to "supervise" that the naughty toys clean up their mess...