Is this normal 4 yo anger?

[PDX Mommy]

I don't know if this is normal or if Evan is experiencing more anger than most kids his age. I've been feeling underwater for a while with this.

Scenario 1:
Evan & Joshua are arguing over toys. I remove a toy that they are fighting over because it has escalated to a point at which they are both screaming and starting to get physical over it. Honestly, it didn't appear as if anyone wanted the toy because they were pushing it at each other. Toy goes on top of the fridge (normal spot). Evan gets angry, runs to the fridge and starts slamming the doors while yelling. I remove him and tell him he needs to get control over his anger or he will need to go to his room until he is calm and can control himself. Continued screaming and body convulsions. I remove him to his room. As I am closing the door, he comes and slams it in my face and then I can hear him throwing things and screaming in his room. He's saying his 4 yo version of insults. Normal? Did I handle it well?

Scenario 2:
My friend & I swap babysitting each week. She watches my boys at her house on Wed mornings for about 2 hrs. I watch her son (21 mo, but very physical and big for his age) at my house on Thurs mornings for about 2 hrs while she & her DH have marriage counseling. Thurs mornings tend to be fine but he is REALLY acting out at her house on Wed mornings. Pushing & hitting her son (K), calling him names, yelling, etc. She'll remove him for a GD "time out" in her living room, away from everyone else, and he'll yell and scream the whole time. IDK what to do. The toys are too young for him, so I'm thinking that I might need to keep a special basket of toys there just for him to play with. Or send him with a movie and the DVD player and ask if he can watch it up in her bedroom or her son's room (basically, away from the litter ones). I know that Evan has expressed frustration because of things like he'll build a tower of blocks and then K will knock it over. I'm guessing it's the age gap getting to him, but I'm just not so sure why he's so violent towards her son. Any ideas? Is this typical for a 4 yo? He just turned 4 at the end of February.

[Sparrow]

Afa normal, not sure. I think so. Max is 4 in October, and this describes him. The toy scario, right down to door slammed in face, I could have posted!

[ReadingMommy]

I have the same issues with my newly-4 DS sometimes, so

[filmgirl2911]

We have similar outbursts of BIG feelings here. I believe it is normal, especially with those younger than Fours (although fours can be equally aggressive with those who are older).

According to the Your Four Year Old book (Ames & Ilg), "four is unpredictable; he may play nicely, but he ay be extremely quarrelsome and rambunctious ..."

They go on to say, "In fact, Fours can, for their own reason, sometimes unfathomed, become extremely aggressive and directive toward much older siblings. Perhaps their own sense of superiority is threatened ..."

Some of what I read in the book fits my four to a tee. And she turned four at the end of Feb., too.

Sometimes she seems so angry / out of control / ragey we mostly try to bear hug her if she might hurt herself or someone else; otherwise we give her some space and work hard to remain the calm in the midst of the storm.

We are also working on tools to handle anger (but not in the moment because she won't hear anything at that point).

Another thing that I've learned is that outbursts and acting out in such BIG ways with BIG feelings mean that I need to focus on my relationship with my girl; she is trying to tell me something by her behavior.

I've found a lot of help in Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline and Siblings without Rivalry.

Stay strong, sweet mama

[MarynMunchkins]

What he's doing sounds normal. Whether it's over the top probably depends more of the frequency and intensity of it.

[Niphredil]

It sounds very similar to my house, but I'm not sure if it's normal.

[PDX Mommy]

Thanks, everyone. I probably need to just start keeping a log of his outbursts, too. I am worried it is food or GI-related (our GI appt is getting nearer...) or if it's just part of being four.

I do see the frequent outbursts as a sign that he probably needs more attention and reconnection, so I try to focus on that. And I have found that sending him to his room so that he can have the space to be angry has helped a lot. I don't want him to feel like he can't express anger around us, so I was worried I was doing something wrong, but I also can't have him throwing things or harming people/things/animals. He knows he can come out when he's calm (and he does) and he also knows that he has to clean up anything he makes a mess of (and that if he breaks something, it will not be replaced).

I think I need to find a used copy of Your Four Year Old.

[PDX Mommy]

Got Your Four Year Old today. I read a good chunk of it, but it didn't really address this concern. I'm seriously thinking about taking him to counseling. IDK what is up with the anger.

Today, I was upstairs getting ready and Evan was whining about wanting to play his Mobigo. I told him no, he flopped around the room for a while, whining the entire time. Then he went downstairs, saw Joshua was playing with a train set that Evan typically keeps in his room but had brought upstairs into a common area. So, fair game in our house. Before I could get downstairs, I heard, "THAT'S MINE! NO, JOSHUA! I'M GOING TO HIT YOU!" and he hit Joshie hard in the face. I lost it. I know I didn't handle it well.

He seems to target Joshua and my friend's son. He spends 2 hrs on Wed mornings at her house and has been getting more and more physical with her son (who is, like, 21 months). Her son comes to our house for about 2 hrs on Thurs mornings (my friend & her DH are in counseling so I babysit for them). I love the break but not if it means that Evan is hurting other people and I'm not really able to relax while he's there. So, I kept him with me today and we had one-on-one time. Went to the used bookstore, and then got coffee/hot chocolate, and mini scones from Starbucks (we sat down there, snuggled together, and read his new books). I know he enjoyed it and he did do better this afternoon. I just don't know if this much anger is normal or typical. How often do your 4 yr olds hit/kick/push people or try to destroy things? Do they yell often? Call names? My friend also doesn't have experience with 4 yr olds, so she's at a loss, too. I'm sure it bothers her to watch him treat her son in that way. Interestingly enough, Evan is MUCH better behaved at our house when her son comes here. In fact, it's usually not a problem at all and the kids all play well. I have thought about bringing him toys, his Mobigo, and the DVD player and asking if he can just play upstairs or watch a movie away from the little ones on Wed mornings...