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Old 03-05-2011, 09:10 PM   #16
Elora
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Default Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by jessisblessed View Post
(i'm having a really bad day so if my posts seem unnecessarily harsh or, even irrational or unreasonable, lets just blame it on that )
fwiw, i think i get what you're saying. here's how my punitive parenting ssis would answer those questions

"What response teaches/enforces healthy boundaries?" i will break the toy in half and throw it in the garbage right in front of their faces to teach them consequences of what will happen if they can't share

"Will this response help keep everyone safe?" yes. no fighting means they're not hurting each other

"What values do I want to teach in this situation?" (respect, patience, kindness, etc...)" i will teach them to share

"Will my response teach them a pattern for how to act in the future?" yes. in the future they will share so that their toys aren't taken

she may not be spanking, but still thnks "you have to make them feel bad to get them to listen"
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Old 03-05-2011, 09:28 PM   #17
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Default Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD

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Old 03-05-2011, 09:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD

By the same token, however, just because the consequence makes them feel badly, does not mean it is wrong to use that consequence or is punitive, etc.

Kids are fighting over a toy. They've been warned that the toy will be taken away and they will be separated if they cannot stop fighting.

What response teaches/enforces healthy boundaries?"
I will put the toy on the top shelf in my closet, so that everyone will learn to take turns or play together. I will separate the children so that they will not hurt one another and will understand that they will lose the privelege of playing together if they can't play together without fighting.
"Will this response help keep everyone safe?" Yes, and it will keep the toy from getting broken.

"What values do I want to teach in this situation?" I want to teach them to be kind to one another, and to be careful with their things. Patience, responsibility also play a part.

"Will my response teach them a pattern for how to act in the future?"
Yes, they will learn that there are consequences to our behavior, both positive or negative.


Now, the children may not like this response at all. They may howl and kick and fuss, etc. But it is a fair and logical consequence, and it isn't punitive, at least to me. I'm not trying to punish them, I'm attempting to teach them how to get along with others, how to be responsible with their belongings, etc. Not attempting to punish them because their behavior has angered me, and they 'deserve' to have their toys taken and not to be allowed to play together.

In Christ,
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Old 03-05-2011, 09:52 PM   #19
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Default Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD

Katigre--thank you so much You have shown with this post (and all sorts of others of course, but this was the crown ) that you totally get it. And, I'm sure you know as I do, that getting it doesn't mean you always are able to accomplish it We're all human and we all make mistakes.

In response to some of the responses . . . I really do get the struggle with feeling overwhelmed by a faulty paradigm. The thing is, and what Katigre is trying to say, focus on changing the paradigm. Run towards a totally new way of doing things. Throw out everything--rather than trying to focus on getting through this or that situation, pull back and look at the big picture.

what are your goals? Are they short term management or long term leadership? In the moment are you being the adult you want them to become?

If not--then the real focus needs to be on becoming the adult you want them to become--and as you do, they will follow you. That's how it works. Where they are is where you've led them--their behaviors are on them, but the overall dynamic, the big picture, YOU choose the canvas, you set the stage. It's scary--especially when you've had no one model it done lovingly and gently. But YOU get to do it now. So decide who YOU want to be--then be that you. And you will parent differently

If you are in the situation where you're even asking "is this punitive/gentle" then you've let things go too far. Muddle through the best you can today and then YOU learn from it--figure out where to stop things before they get there.

Of course, if you have children under the age of 5, just stop stressing. Focus on your boundaries, and what you want to do, and what you will do--because they are going to act their age no matter what you do. This is the age to focus on how you respond--to focus on BEING the parent you want to be. At these ages it is NOT about outcome--the results will not show themselves for years. Think of the parable of the rich man who owned a field and sowed wheat and during the night the enemy sowed weeds. The workers wanted permission to go out and pull up all the weeds but the landowner said NO--because you might pull out wheat with the weeds. Let them both grow up together and then you will know which is which--and pull out the weeds before the wheat is harvested. (totally paraphrasing--but the parable fits here )

In the toddler/preschool years what may look like a weed is often an immature fruit, and what may look beautiful may turn out to be the bud of a weed. Just focus on building your gardening tools and then when you know which is which you will be prepared
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:04 PM   #20
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Default Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove View Post
Of course, if you have children under the age of 5, just stop stressing. Focus on your boundaries, and what you want to do, and what you will do--because they are going to act their age no matter what you do. This is the age to focus on how you respond--to focus on BEING the parent you want to be. At these ages it is NOT about outcome--the results will not show themselves for years. Think of the parable of the rich man who owned a field and sowed wheat and during the night the enemy sowed weeds. The workers wanted permission to go out and pull up all the weeds but the landowner said NO--because you might pull out wheat with the weeds. Let them both grow up together and then you will know which is which--and pull out the weeds before the wheat is harvested. (totally paraphrasing--but the parable fits here )

In the toddler/preschool years what may look like a weed is often an immature fruit, and what may look beautiful may turn out to be the bud of a weed. Just focus on building your gardening tools and then when you know which is which you will be prepared
thanks! thats encouraging!!
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:13 PM   #21
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Default Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove View Post
In the moment are you being the adult you want them to become?

I really, really needed to read that today, I was not the adult I want my boys to be and did way too much yelling. Thank you for writing that Crystal. I'm going to put that on my fridge.
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:20 PM   #22
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Default Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove View Post
If not--then the real focus needs to be on becoming the adult you want them to become
it's hard to get to a place if you don't know where and what that place is - or even what it looks like

once you know what the "adult you want them to become" looks like, it's much easier to answer those questions

but sometimes, especially when you're eyes have just recently been open to the fact that something is wrong with the adult that you are (which in and of itself can be hard to swallow), it's hard to know WHAT you're supposed to BE

i think katigre's questions are great and very helpful for me personally...but 5 yrs ago they would not have helped me because i didn't realize anything was wrong with the adult i was
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:45 AM   #23
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Default Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD

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Old 03-06-2011, 03:42 AM   #24
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Default Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katigre View Post
"What response teaches/enforces healthy boundaries?"
"Will this response help keep everyone safe?"
"What values do I want to teach in this situation?" (respect, patience, kindness, etc...)"
"Will my response teach them a pattern for how to act in the future?"
I want to put these on my refrigerator

Again, I'm reminded that GBD is about relationships. The other night, DH and I were discussing the parenting that raised both of us - my family being traditionally punitive and his appearing more grace based. However, his parents had the appearance of "gentle" discipline because they wanted to avoid conflict with their children. As a teenager, dh would sneak out of the house at night. One time his dad caught him coming back in, but NOTHING was ever said. At the time dh thought "Score! I got away with it. What cool parents." Now, he feels that the lack of a relational component in those parenting decisions has direct implications to his current relationship with his parents.

So, it's not about "being tough" or "being nice."

I guess I have to remember the relationship that I have with my kids and the impact that comes from modeling a healthy relationship. I don't want to use conditioning (smacking the hand etc) to produce "correct" behavior, but at the same time I don't want to gloss over inappropriate behavior just to avoid conflict. I want to foster a strong, healthy relationship with my kids and not be so insecure in that relationship that I feel it is threatened by conflict or disobedience.

Oooohhh, there's so much to think about...
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Old 03-06-2011, 07:50 AM   #25
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Default Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD

Thank you for the responses and thank you's . When I put it up yesterday I was a little nervous and wasn't sure about how it would be received...sometimes ideas sound great in your head but not so much in discussion with others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove View Post
And, I'm sure you know as I do, that getting it doesn't mean you always are able to accomplish it We're all human and we all make mistakes.
Having a GBD paradigm in place does NOT mean that I am a perfect parent and never struggle. I'm human, I get overly frustrated with childish behavior and react, etc... Having a solid philosophy of discipline in place makes handling those lapses easier because I have a goal in sight to aim toward - it doesn't mean I don't struggle in the first place .

If it is any encouragement, I am raising second generation GBD kids* - I'm pruning along a familiar path, not blazing a whole new trail. The latter is much harder, but not impossible. I know several families who established a new pattern with their kids (and those kids are now grown and carrying it on in their own lives). It's a one step at a time process of renewing mind and thoughts, of reframing it with help and support. That's why this community is so important - I would not be the parent that I am today without the support I've found on GCM .

* Neither of my parents were raised GBD, but that is the approach they settled on with us because it seemed most logical to them . They succeeded with this the best when we were tweens and teens. (Our younger years had some typical punitive elements along with strong relational bonds and a lot of quality time invested into us).

The fruit of their mostly-GBD parenting in our lives as adults is enormous - you can see it in our self-confidence, strong work ethic, lack of shame issues, reliable character, stable relationships (healthy marriages and good relationships with our parents), and solid boundaries. That is the fruit of years of intentional parenting (not perfection ), including periods where our behavior looked rocky.

As they look back, there are things they would do differently. There are areas where they see they fell short, there are places they were too lax. But the overall picture was of loving, connected, relational parenting with high standards (but not harshness). Focusing on the relational component goes a long way toward GBD because it helps you to relate empathetically to your child. My mom is still one of my best friends to this day (with great boundaries ). She invests in me relationally as a person - not as an extension of her own image, as a project to be fixed, or as someone who is out of step with her ideas. This is something that started way back when I was a child.
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Old 03-06-2011, 04:40 PM   #26
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Default Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katigre View Post


Instead, when I am approaching a situation with the kids, I focus on these types of questions when problem solving (let's take the issue of siblings fighting over a toy):
"What response teaches/enforces healthy boundaries?"
"Will this response help keep everyone safe?"
"What values do I want to teach in this situation?" (respect, patience, kindness, etc...)"
"Will my response teach them a pattern for how to act in the future?"


Those questions are proactive and encourage me to think through GBD in a positive way (not as a reaction against being punitive, but in positively choosing it as the best option for my family).
could I please share this with DH?
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Old 03-06-2011, 04:56 PM   #27
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Default Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD

This is a public forum. You may share it with anyone. The link to the OP is http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/community/showpost.php?p=3737556&postcount=1
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:34 PM   #28
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Default Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD

Something that I felt God has showed me is that I will not be able to control what happens to DS in the future - when he is an adult, I will not be there to micro-manage his life. What matters is my reactions to the issues that come up between us - that is what he will remember and will stick with him.

It helps me remember to be the adult in the situation.
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Old 03-07-2011, 08:19 PM   #29
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Default Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD

Uh.. Could we sticky this? Pretty please? I *know* I will be coming back to this in the future.

For me, even being able to understand the OP was HUGE as a year ago I would have read it and been completly lost and had no idea what it was communicating.

However, I do still "miss the point" of GBD. I am learning.. But honestly its soooooo hard to even tell if my motives in situations are gentle/relationship based or not. I am totally understanding what Mommy5 and jessisblessed are saying, cuz I am so there. And I found GCM somewhat early on in my parenting life.. DS was 3 months, and I stalked for 2 months before joining when he was 5 months.
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Old 03-07-2011, 08:42 PM   #30
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Default Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD

Katigre, if you don't mind I'm going to print these out and put them on my fridge. Thank you so much. How helpful!
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http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/community/

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Soli Deo Gloria
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. ~ Romans 16:27 (KJV)

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