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Old 05-16-2012, 08:03 PM   #46
Petie
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

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Originally Posted by MaryPoppinsIAin't View Post
I have spent twenty minutes trying to reword this so it doesn't sound snarky, but I can't seem to pull it off without changing what I want to say, sooo... Not being snarky, promise!!

Maybe it's just me, but I've always thought that most adults don't give kids near enough credit. Thinking that a toddler who is taught that instructions worded as commands are exactly that, commands, and instructions worded as questions are requests (ie, optional) will obviously grow into an adult who can't tell the difference between a friend's request and a boss's (or a cop's) politely worded instruction kinda seems up there with more mainstream folks who see a breast-feeding toddler and somehow extrapolate a breast-feeding twelve year old.

I'm still working on how it would all look in practice, exactly, but it seems to me that it should be possible to teach a child to be polite (and that parents always have the option of "no", while kids don't always have the option) while still telling when I mean "do it now" and asking when I mean "it's okay if you're busy".

The best teachers I ever had always established the rules, THEN eased up on the strict observance of formality. Taught the basics before things got complicated. Not the greatest analogy, but... identifying an instruction that was worded as a request seems like a secondary skill... so they might need to learn the primary skill of id'ing and following a plainly stated instruction first?
I didn't take it as snarky. I do understand what you're saying. I think what really gets me though, is knowing that saying please isn't helping and yet turning around saying that there basically isn't any time when a child can say "no" to an adult. This is how I was raised which may be why it hits me wrong to see it happen in my own home. I have noticed that many here have ways that their children know the difference. Mine don't, and for that matter, I have trouble with the difference. It does make life hard when a boss asks me nicely to do something, and I feel that I HAVE TO SAY YES. I was raised that when an authority asks, that is the same as an order. So, my job consisted of me doing every single volunteer job that there was, "hey would you mind taking on the grocery shopping for the shelter". "Yeah, no problem." And I find myself lugging two shopping carts that are overflowing through wal-mart to get enough groceries for the shelter. "hey, can you come in on Saturday to help fix the bunk beds?" "Sure, no problem." And I end up going into work on Sunday with blisters on my hands and exhausted. I don't want my children to be the kind that don't know when to say "no". I guess we all have our own pet peeves, which is why I listed this as MY pet peeve. I understand that others won't see it the same, or have ways to differentiate. But saying that because my children understand communication in my home only is also faulty. They go to school, I'm sure each of their teachers has a different method of communication that they learn from. But in our home, if it is phrased a request, "no" is an acceptable option. This bothered me because it happened in MY home. After explaining it to my mom, she has adjusted how she deals with the kids.



P.S. I also definitely didn't mean for this to come off as snarky, I hope it didn't.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:39 AM   #47
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

This is such an interesting discussion. I can see both sides
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:52 AM   #48
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

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Originally Posted by Petie View Post
It does make life hard when a boss asks me nicely to do something, and I feel that I HAVE TO SAY YES. I was raised that when an authority asks, that is the same as an order. So, my job consisted of me doing every single volunteer job that there was, "hey would you mind taking on the grocery shopping for the shelter". "Yeah, no problem." And I find myself lugging two shopping carts that are overflowing through wal-mart to get enough groceries for the shelter. "hey, can you come in on Saturday to help fix the bunk beds?" "Sure, no problem." And I end up going into work on Sunday with blisters on my hands and exhausted. I don't want my children to be the kind that don't know when to say "no". I guess we all have our own pet peeves, which is why I listed this as MY pet peeve. I understand that others won't see it the same, or have ways to differentiate. But saying that because my children understand communication in my home only is also faulty. They go to school, I'm sure each of their teachers has a different method of communication that they learn from. But in our home, if it is phrased a request, "no" is an acceptable option. This bothered me because it happened in MY home. After explaining it to my mom, she has adjusted how she deals with the kids.



P.S. I also definitely didn't mean for this to come off as snarky, I hope it didn't.
Not snarky at all, and now I understand more what you were saying. I'll admit that I was reading the OP mostly through my teacher lens, since my kids are so much younger. And I could see all kinds of problems happening at school if kids didn't recognize anything with "please" as commands there. But to say "In this house, this is how we do things" makes total sense.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:03 AM   #49
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

I don't think it's a good thing to view a request as an order. I think we NEED to teach our children boundaries and let them be allowed to say no to a request but learn to do as we tell them to do. I really think it's good to differentiate between a request and an order. It's not the "please" that makes it a request. It's the way it's state.

"could you move that to the table" (is a request (optional) even without the please)
"Please take off your shoes " (is an order even with the polite please)

The words "could and can you or would you" all indicate a request. Without those they are an order. Please just makes it more polite, no matter if it is a request or not.

What I have learned here on GCM is to us commands for young children and do NOT use requests when it is not optional. Then making sure you help make it happen every time helps them learn it is not optional. Don't start giving optional requests till they are later. At some point (not sure which age) you start teaching the difference between "may I " and "can I" and they begin to understand the difference. I don't want my children to learn to obey every adult that makes a request or gives an order.

I think that I really want my DD to learn that she CAN say no to requests from those in authority. For example you said that if a boss asks if you could do something you feel like you have to. Just because you feel like you have to , does not mean you really do. If it is voluntary, such as overtime or extra work you SHOULD be able to say no. Teaching our children good boundaries will help them be able to say no when appropriate. I think I wasn't raised to feel like I could say no and create my own boundaries. I think this is something I want to do differently with my DD.
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Old 05-17-2012, 12:25 PM   #50
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

Quote:
It does make life hard when a boss asks me nicely to do something, and I feel that I HAVE TO SAY YES.
^^^THIS.

Quote:
I don't want my children to learn to obey every adult that makes a request or gives an order.
^^^ And this!

These two points sail right to the heart of what I was trying to get at. I think it's important for kids to learn and have experience with the difference between "do it now", "anytime today", and "if you're not busy, I would appreciate X". (And all potential variations of the above!) And just as important to learn that in the case of the third, "Sorry, I can't", "I'd really rather not", or just plain "No" are options.

I have a SUPER hard time saying no to anyone in a perceived position of authority, because I wasn't allowed to growing up. I'm also a "fixer" type personality, a get it done sort of person. A lot of physical and emotional abuse went on because nobody in my house was allowed to say no to Daddy... = learned response of "authority asks = do it now or you get hurt". Add water & stir, and you have a person with a habit of badly overloading herself, making it work for a month or three, and then one of the spinning plates falls, the domino effect kicks in, I have a total meltdown, then feel guilty for failing people, and the whole vicious cycle starts over again.

I don't want my kids to have that problem. I want them to know how to set appropriate boundaries and make them stick. It makes sense that in order to learn that skill, they would need practice in responding to various levels of important on the scale of demand <-------> request.

Kids don't *always* have the option of saying no... but sometimes they should. Otherwise how will they learn when saying no is appropriate, even necessary?
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Old 05-17-2012, 12:49 PM   #51
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

Am I reading correctly that "please" indicates a request to children?

I don't ask, but I do say please. "feet on the floor, please" am I making it sound optional?
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:03 PM   #52
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

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Originally Posted by Tandem mama View Post
Am I reading correctly that "please" indicates a request to children?

I don't ask, but I do say please. "feet on the floor, please" am I making it sound optional?
I think that sounds good. Do they obey? That would determine if they are perceiving it as optional.
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:05 PM   #53
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

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Originally Posted by Tandem mama View Post
Am I reading correctly that "please" indicates a request to children?

I don't ask, but I do say please. "feet on the floor, please" am I making it sound optional?
IMO Please does not indicate a request. Please is just being polite. Can you, will you, makes it a request. Please put your feet on the floor does not indicate any option. It is politely tell the person to do so. Can you put your feet on the floor please, indicates a request because it is asking a question if the child can or is willing to.
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:23 PM   #54
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

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I didn't take it as snarky. It does make life hard when a boss asks me nicely to do something, and I feel that I HAVE TO SAY YES.
Yeah, I have this problem too even though my parents were pretty easygoing. In fact when I go back to work when the next school year starts, I'm going to be facing two tasks from my boss that I want to say no to. The problem is that I really don't know how optional those tasks are. So I have to weigh the potential consequences of saying no, and figure out the best way to say it in a way that does not damage my relationship with my boss, and decide if there's room for negotiation (like saying yes to one to get a break on the other)... knowing how and when and whether to say no is complicated stuff no matter how old you are.
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:12 PM   #55
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

Wow. This thread is totally foreign to me. It never even occurred to me that "please" would mean "only if you want to, this request is optional."

If I'm walking onto a bus and the conductor says, "tickets, please" I don't assume that means tickets are optional. If a police officer says, "Please step back, Maam" instead of "Step back NOW!" that is just being polite and professional, not making it optional. If I say "Please stop touching me" to a the person pushing me from behind in line, that is not a request that I'm giving them the option not to honor.

I do have to watch out that I don't phrase requests by saying "Do you want to . . . " or "Would you like to . . . " which used to be a bad habit of mine (it's something my mother said, and the answer was never optional, LOL). Even before I had kids, it was something I had to work through with my husband.

But I can't even wrap my mind around politeness negating an instruction. If I say "Please come here now" it's the same thing as saying "Come here now" only more polite.

I don't expect my kids to always obey unquestioningly in all situations no matter how I word it, but I don't see "please" as meaning "this is optional" at all.

---------- Post added at 10:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 PM ----------

I just asked my kids if "Please come here" means the same thing as "Come here" to them, or if they view it differently. They all said the please doesn't make it optional; it's just being polite.

---------- Post added at 10:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 PM ----------

But my kids do know that if they are in the middle of something and do it politely, they have the option to discuss it whether I said "Come here" or "Please come here." I.e. in either case they might reply, "I'm going to the bathroom/washing my hands/getting a drink of water/whatever--be there in a minute" or "Can I finish x first?"
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:19 PM   #56
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

I think I agree with the last few posters that "please" is just being polite, not necessary making things optional. More important to me is whether or not my request is a statement or a question; ie., if I ask "would you do such and such?" then "no" is a valid answer. If I say "please do such and such" then, well it's not a question

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Old 05-17-2012, 03:24 PM   #57
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

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I think that sounds good. Do they obey? That would determine if they are perceiving it as optional.
as much as any 4 and 2 year old listen to anything. When they feel like it Which is why we love and frequently use the five steps in our house.
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:28 PM   #58
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

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I think I agree with the last few posters that "please" is just being polite, not necessary making things optional.
As adults, sure we understand that. But not all kids do. My middle one, for example. If I put please onto a command, he'll buck/say no/whatever. If I don't, he will do as I said without complaint.

To make a blanket statement that please always just means polite just can't be made because some kids DO take it as optional/request.
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:57 PM   #59
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

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Originally Posted by Happygrl View Post

To make a blanket statement that please always just means polite just can't be made because some kids DO take it as optional/request.
But isn't that where it's our job as parents to explain that "please" doesn't mean "optional"? If we don't do that at some point, what will happen when they grow up and the police officer says "Please move off the street" and they say, "No thanks"?
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:04 PM   #60
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

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Originally Posted by purple_kangaroo View Post
But isn't that where it's our job as parents to explain that "please" doesn't mean "optional"? If we don't do that at some point, what will happen when they grow up and the police officer says "Please move off the street" and they say, "No thanks"?
Ok saying that just because we don't use it in our house means they won't ever learn to move for a police officer is faulty. It's like when someone against homeschooling says, "they'll never learn to stand in line if they don't go to school." It's faulty logic. My children understand that a police officer an authority figure that they need to listen to. They are just children, yet they understand this concept, even though, at our house we don't use please unless it's optional.
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  • (1)ad_showthread_firstpost_start
  • (11)bbcode_quote
  • (1)cyb_flashimagebanners
  • (1)footer
  • (1)forumjump
  • (1)forumrules
  • (1)gobutton
  • (1)header
  • (1)headinclude
  • (1)navbar
  • (3)navbar_link
  • (60)option
  • (1)pagenav
  • (1)pagenav_curpage
  • (6)pagenav_pagelink
  • (15)post_groan_box
  • (1)post_groan_javascript
  • (1)post_groan_navbar_search
  • (15)post_thanks_box
  • (27)post_thanks_box_bit
  • (1)post_thanks_javascript
  • (1)post_thanks_navbar_search
  • (9)post_thanks_postbit_legacy
  • (15)postbit_legacy
  • (15)postbit_onlinestatus
  • (143)postbit_reputation
  • (15)postbit_wrapper
  • (4)showthread_bookmarksite
  • (1)smqre_editor_button
  • (1)spacer_close
  • (1)spacer_open
  • (1)tagbit_wrapper 

Phrase Groups Available:
  • global
  • inlinemod
  • postbit
  • posting
  • reputationlevel
  • showthread
Included Files:
  • ./showthread.php
  • ./global.php
  • ./includes/init.php
  • ./includes/class_core.php
  • ./includes/config.php
  • ./includes/functions.php
  • ./includes/class_hook.php
  • ./includes/functions_notice.php
  • ./mobiquo/smartbanner.php
  • ./mobiquo/include/classTTConnection.php
  • ./mobiquo/smartbanner/head.inc.php
  • ./includes/functions_bigthree.php
  • ./includes/class_postbit.php
  • ./includes/class_bbcode.php
  • ./includes/functions_reputation.php
  • ./includes/adminfunctions_template.php
  • ./includes/functions_misc.php
  • ./includes/functions_post_thanks.php
  • ./includes/functions_post_groan.php 

Hooks Called:
  • init_startup
  • cache_permissions
  • fetch_threadinfo_query
  • fetch_threadinfo
  • fetch_foruminfo
  • style_fetch
  • cache_templates
  • global_start
  • parse_templates
  • fetch_musername
  • notices_check_start
  • global_setup_complete
  • showthread_start
  • template_groups
  • template_safe_functions
  • template_compile
  • showthread_getinfo
  • forumjump
  • showthread_post_start
  • showthread_query_postids
  • showthread_query
  • bbcode_fetch_tags
  • bbcode_create
  • showthread_postbit_create
  • postbit_factory
  • postbit_display_start
  • post_thanks_function_post_thanks_off_start
  • post_thanks_function_post_thanks_off_end
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_start
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_end
  • post_thanks_function_thanked_already_start
  • post_thanks_function_thanked_already_end
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_bit_start
  • post_thanks_function_show_thanks_date_start
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_bit_end
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_post_thanks_template_start
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_post_thanks_template_end
  • post_groan_function_post_groan_off_start
  • post_groan_function_post_groan_off_end
  • post_groan_function_fetch_groans_start
  • post_groan_function_fetch_groans_end
  • post_groan_function_groaned_already_start
  • post_groan_function_groaned_already_end
  • reputation_image
  • bbcode_parse_start
  • postbit_imicons
  • bbcode_parse_complete_precache
  • bbcode_parse_complete
  • postbit_display_complete
  • error_fetch
  • pagenav_page
  • pagenav_complete
  • tag_fetchbit_complete
  • forumrules
  • showthread_bookmarkbit
  • navbits
  • navbits_complete
  • showthread_complete