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Old 06-10-2018, 10:47 AM   #1
ShiriChayim
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Default Evidently, I am terrible at dog training

Two years ago we adopted a dog who was around 2-3 years of age from the shelter. Fonzie is-we're pretty sure-a corgi something mix. We are fairly certain he spent most of his life in a kennel. From the moment he came home, he has been highly anxious. They told us he was crate trained, but any attempts to crate him results in him getting very upset; we attempted put up gates to keep in in the kitchen when we were gone and he chewed them the shreds and managed to get out anyway.

My biggest issue with him right now is the revenge peeing. He gets mad at us and goes and pees, either in my daughters room or on the living room carpet. He also hates being outside if the weather is anything but sunny, dry, and very warm and on days like today that it's wet and rainy he not only refuses to go outside, but when we put him on the leash and take him he sits by door and whines until he can come and immediately goes and pees somewhere. I'm so frustrated!

Right now he's really mad because I put in in a harness instead of a collar. This is because a few days ago I took him out to go and get the kids from school, he saw a rabbit and took off after it, and I was left standing behind with a collar attached to a leash . I need to know he's safe with us, so we got him a (very nice, padded, mesh across the chest) harness that fits him just fine. He has spent the past two days pouting and refusing to move any more than necessary. I really thought he would get over it faster than this.

This dog is a part of the family, we all love him like crazy. But, he's not directly obedient to us or the kids and the peeing HAS TO STOP! I need people's best tips for working with a smart, stubborn, anxious dog.

---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 PM ----------

I wanted to add, we did try to just have a crate that he could sit in that was always kept open for him. He peed in it and all around the sides of it, so I had to remove it from the house .

---------- Post added at 12:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 PM ----------

Also wanted to come back and add a picture of my cutie. We really do love him, Iím just exasperated




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Old 06-10-2018, 11:12 AM   #2
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Default Re: Evidently, I am terrible at dog training

Can I assume you have had him checked out by a vet to be sure the urination isn't a physical problem?

Also, be careful about the negative intent. 'revenge' 'pouting' might be issues related to stress and anxiety. I've had one or two of those that did work out over time. I've had otherwise 'normal' dogs who were terrified to go out in the rain. What you don't know about his early life might be critical.
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Old 06-10-2018, 11:26 AM   #3
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Default Re: Evidently, I am terrible at dog training

Would a rubbermaid type container with either sod or you grow some grass on dirt work for when he is inside? Thankfully our little revenge girl doesn't pee on things, but we can't trust her to not tear anything that is stuffed up...... I feel your pain.

We did by a giant 4 foot tall (for a medium sized dog) and large enough long for a crib mattress and we put a sheet over it when we want her to go 'nite nite'. She is terrified of noise and a wooden baby gate fell over, so she doesn't try to mess with our gates.

I am wondering if you are dealing with separation anxiety. Thus the crate/gate problem.

If your dog refuses to move in the harness, I would suggest starve him out.......let him pout, and place some of his favorite snacks three or 4 feet away and he will either crawl or forget how mad he is and get up to get the treats. We also do a harness..........our wild girl pulled really badly when she was younger (and if she gets scared, she will pull you to the door) One thing that I found that helps me keep her better under control and 'perfect side' was to buy myself a double handle padded leash. I think I found it on Amazon. it has a padded handle at the end of the leash and then there is a padded strap about 3 feet from where it connects with the dog harness. (Going down stairs was horrible until I got this leash........now I hold the end in one hand and the short handle in the other hand and we step each step one at a time. On the walkway she is beside me.)
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Old 06-10-2018, 12:11 PM   #4
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Default Re: Evidently, I am terrible at dog training

I've got no dog training advice, but I do think he's utterly adorable!
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Old 06-10-2018, 02:15 PM   #5
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Default Re: Evidently, I am terrible at dog training

If you're friends with Katherine Christ or Lindsay Bench they're dog trainers and might have some advice.
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Old 06-10-2018, 02:59 PM   #6
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Default Re: Evidently, I am terrible at dog training

Dog training is very specific. Dogs understand a select few reinforcements. Once you know what those are, almost any dog is trainable. Training can greatly reduce anxiety in many cases but not always. It is imperative that anger never factor in to your training and discipline. It's always "no" when the dog does something undesirable and always "good boy" (or whatever you use) the second he does what you want, even if you're really upset at how long he was doing the wrong thing.

If he pulled out of his collar, it was too loose. Most people have dog collars too loose. It is usually really hard to get an older dog used to a harness if he's always been in a collar.

Have you watched any YouTube videos on dog training? Or done any reading? Have you read about the hierarchy that dogs understand?

I have a friend who's a dog trainer. Here's a video she posted on Facebook that gives an example of how very well-meaning dog owners confuse their dogs about desired behavior.

https://www.facebook.com/plugins/vid...72453500949%2F

She has a few more videos on her page https://www.facebook.com/FeistyPetTr...00000123901405
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Old 06-10-2018, 08:02 PM   #7
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Default Re: Evidently, I am terrible at dog training

My sister is a dog trainer, she's gentle so no punishments or pushing the dog over or any crazy made up stuff like that. She has experience with highly anxious dogs. She does Skype training: https://www.amatterofmannersdogtraining.com/
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Old 06-11-2018, 04:52 AM   #8
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Default Re: Evidently, I am terrible at dog training

Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticJourney View Post
Can I assume you have had him checked out by a vet to be sure the urination isn't a physical problem?

Also, be careful about the negative intent. 'revenge' 'pouting' might be issues related to stress and anxiety. I've had one or two of those that did work out over time. I've had otherwise 'normal' dogs who were terrified to go out in the rain. What you don't know about his early life might be critical.
We have spoken to the vet and she says there is no medical reason. At this point, I donít need him to be not terrified of rain, but I do need him to be able to go out and do his business on a rainy morning instead of sitting and whining and then running inside and immediately peeing in my daughterís room. Our vet suggested that we crate him and let him out to go outside, if he doesnít do anything itís back to the crate, and retry every 5 minutes until he has. However, that seemed to make him more anxious so I stopped doing that. Every morning we can, one of use just goes and stands with him or takes him for a long walk-but heíll still refuse to do anything until back inside. Not always, but often enough that itís a serious problem. In terms of positive intent-I honestly feel that revenge is one of the best descriptors since he does it when heís unhappy with something weíve done. Weíve told him to get down from the bed and he immediately went to our daughterís room and peed . I do try to keep in mind that Iím pretty sure we were his first actual home. I still need tools to deal with these behaviors though

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maedchen View Post
Would a rubbermaid type container with either sod or you grow some grass on dirt work for when he is inside? Thankfully our little revenge girl doesn't pee on things, but we can't trust her to not tear anything that is stuffed up...... I feel your pain.

We did by a giant 4 foot tall (for a medium sized dog) and large enough long for a crib mattress and we put a sheet over it when we want her to go 'nite nite'. She is terrified of noise and a wooden baby gate fell over, so she doesn't try to mess with our gates.

I am wondering if you are dealing with separation anxiety. Thus the crate/gate problem.

If your dog refuses to move in the harness, I would suggest starve him out.......let him pout, and place some of his favorite snacks three or 4 feet away and he will either crawl or forget how mad he is and get up to get the treats. We also do a harness..........our wild girl pulled really badly when she was younger (and if she gets scared, she will pull you to the door) One thing that I found that helps me keep her better under control and 'perfect side' was to buy myself a double handle padded leash. I think I found it on Amazon. it has a padded handle at the end of the leash and then there is a padded strap about 3 feet from where it connects with the dog harness. (Going down stairs was horrible until I got this leash........now I hold the end in one hand and the short handle in the other hand and we step each step one at a time. On the walkway she is beside me.)
He doesnít like dirt either, so Iím not sure a container would work. He is moving more with the harness, just very slowly. Didnít even chase a squirrel when I let him out this morning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soliloquy View Post
Dog training is very specific. Dogs understand a select few reinforcements. Once you know what those are, almost any dog is trainable. Training can greatly reduce anxiety in many cases but not always. It is imperative that anger never factor in to your training and discipline. It's always "no" when the dog does something undesirable and always "good boy" (or whatever you use) the second he does what you want, even if you're really upset at how long he was doing the wrong thing.

If he pulled out of his collar, it was too loose. Most people have dog collars too loose. It is usually really hard to get an older dog used to a harness if he's always been in a collar.

Have you watched any YouTube videos on dog training? Or done any reading? Have you read about the hierarchy that dogs understand?

I have a friend who's a dog trainer. Here's a video she posted on Facebook that gives an example of how very well-meaning dog owners confuse their dogs about desired behavior.

https://www.facebook.com/plugins/vid...72453500949%2F

She has a few more videos on her page https://www.facebook.com/FeistyPetTr...00000123901405
I will check those pages out, thank you! Iíve read and researched as I can but a lot of the information is contradictory and sometimes very unrealistic (no matter how hard I try, Iím never going to catch him in the act 100% of the time, and I cannot just sit around the house all day every day training the dog.) I am very open to good resources and recommendations. Although I do think I need a lot of it broken down for me. The video you shared showed her having her dog ďsettleĒ and I would need to start froms scratch with something like that. The harness is actually a solution to a few different problems, although him slipping out of his collar was the big one. I really feel this needs to continue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marbles View Post
My sister is a dog trainer, she's gentle so no punishments or pushing the dog over or any crazy made up stuff like that. She has experience with highly anxious dogs. She does Skype training: https://www.amatterofmannersdogtraining.com/
I will check her out, thank you!
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:20 AM   #9
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Default Re: Evidently, I am terrible at dog training

Some dogs are shaped wrong for a collar. I had a dog that could slip out of any collar. When looking for training advice, avoid anything about dominance or making sure he knows your the 'alpha'.... you control the food, the access to attention, furniture, bathroom, freedom....he knows your the boss, lol. Anxious animals can be *very* hard to work with. Think of him like one of your children, he needs encouragement and security, some of the issues will likely not stop until the anxiety does. There are some natural remedies for pet anxiety that help a lot, but I'm not sure specifically what for dogs. You can also get prescription med for him. I know it's impossible to watch him every minute but he should get several concerted efforts of training a day-its OK if it's only ten or 15 minutes at a time. Work on easy, beginner stuff first, build success and confidence. Potty training should happen throughout the day. You might be able to get farther with him if you keep him with you on a leash when inside- get some tiny treats (I like cat treats, or you can set aside his serving of kibble for the day- just make sure he gets it all over the course of the day) keep the treats or food in your pocket. As you move around signal to him ('come on, *name*, here boy, whatever) and feed him a piece as he moves with you. He will quickly want to follow you around. Family members can take turns with this. Also use this to start training specific behaviors, but you will want to make a list of the first few things you want to accomplish- sit/stay should be on the first round. Prioritize and work only on one or two at a time until he has it. Everytime you give a treat you should give enthusiastic praise and some loves. As he masters the skill you start sometimes giving just the praise and loves, and slowly back off on those until he's doing it well with quick 'good boy' and or a pat. During the weaning phase you can introduce a new behavior to work on, at the beginner reinforcement level. For outdoor potties, take him out on the leash (with your pocket of treats) to a spot you have picked out as the potty place. Stand there. For as long as it takes. Do not interact until you see him start to go. As he prepares to potty- but *before* he starts to go- say 'go potty' then as he gets finished immediately start enthusiastic praise, loves and treats. *Then* you can walk him or play. This trains him to do his business first, as many dogs quickly learn that their owners will only stay out and let them explore until they have pottied, at which point they get rushed back inside. It will also have the side effect of teaching him to go on command, if he can. Picking a spot helps encourage him to go as soon as he gets out there so he can get to the fun stuff, and also makes clearing the minefield quite a bit easier, and the rest of the yard safer to walk in, lol. This kind of training should also help his anxiety enormously, as he associates you (and people in general) with happy noises, loves, and treats! Hmmm, what else....oh, you will probably only need the leash indoors for a day or two before he is eagerly following you around on his own. Don't make a big deal about indoor potty accidents, just clean them up with no scolding or emotion....just like with a child. You won't need to 'train' that part out once he figures out how much you *really* *LOVE* it when he pees outside, lol. Oh, and I found it pretty useful to buy a doorknob bell decoration thingy...when you take him to the door to go out, jingle the bells a bit then immediately open the door. If he is *really* slow it'll take him maybe 3 days to start ringing the bell to let you know he wants out. At first (for a week or so) take him out *every* time he asks....it's super important, no matter how many times he does it a day. Tell him he's a good boy and take him straight to the pee spot! Once he has established the habit you can take the bells down when you don't want to take him out (starting at a few minutes at a time, working up to a few hours) so he will learn that outside is only available when the bells are up. That is always a nice option to have when you need to not be interrupted for a little while. But only do that part if you are really good at remembering to put them back. If you have any other pets that go outside they will all pick up the bell trick, as will your kids, lol.
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:26 AM   #10
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Default Re: Evidently, I am terrible at dog training

We adopted our puppy at 8 wks. I bought a desk bell off of amazon.com and put it on the floor on her side of the gate. I would ask, if she had to potty and then take her paw and tap the bell. We then put the harness on and went out. Successful trips got/get praise and a small treat when we come inside.

We dont' do the bell so much anymore, but she is still up for the treats.

As a funny.............my husband started this thing when we go out, singing "Come on Penni, let's go potty" or "Stinkerella, Stinkerella".............Now you see these 2 old people out in the yard singing these silly tunes to get the dog to hurry up and pick a spot. LOL He also sings to her when we put her dish down with meals.......and then picks up her paw on top of the other paw and prays.....If you skip either of those things, she refuses to eat her meal.

Dogs are funny. (She also gets very anxious and we have really never left her in the house alone. Someone is usually here all the time, so I don' t know how she will handle that if the time comes that we have to leave the house together.) Ours is definitely an Alpha dog. (She was so different when we adopted her. Of course they did not tell us that she had a virus that almost killed her the day after we got her......they did not give us the antibiotics she was on at the shelter. We had to eye dropper feed and water her around the clock for over a week.)

I hope you can figure out your fur baby's language and get the problems taken care of. I love the hanging bell or a desk bell on the floor for them to ring when they need outside.
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:57 PM   #11
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Default Re: Evidently, I am terrible at dog training

Glad he's getting used to the harness.

Even though the crate seemed to make him more anxious, I'd keep at it for awhile. Dogs can become more anxious if they think their alpha is confused. He may not like being crated when it rains but that may go away when he understands the if/then of the crate. Plus I think you'll feel less frustrated if he pees in his crate than elsewhere in the house, correct?

Dogs feel safe with consistency and when they understand their position in the family. Changing what you do in response to his anxiety could feed the anxiety. It's worth trying the crate method.

You can give alcohol free rescue remedy to dogs, too. They make a special pet version but it's the same active ingredients in glycerin instead of alcohol. So, any alcohol free version might help.
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Old 06-12-2018, 02:07 PM   #12
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Default Re: Evidently, I am terrible at dog training

I don’t have any advice but we have a revenge peer too and it is infuriating. I just had to get rid of my favorite chair. Soon I’m going to have an empty living room. I know that’s not helpful but I get it.
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Old 06-13-2018, 05:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: Evidently, I am terrible at dog training

So, harness had to come off. He was withholding bowel movements and I was starting to get nervous about a bowel impaction . I spritzed some of his favorite pee places with vinegar, I read somewhere that can discourage them from using that spot again.
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Old 06-13-2018, 05:21 PM   #14
Soliloquy
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Default Re: Evidently, I am terrible at dog training

That's what my mom used to use. I use vinegar followed by Bac-Out (I buy it by the gallon from Amazon. I also use Bac-Out to spray mattresses and I lightly spray the carpet a few times a month, after vacuuming, to prevent dog smell).
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