9.5 and *still* has attitude about chores

[forty-two]

My oldest two whine and moan about chores on a way-too-frequent basis , despite their being part of the routine for years in some cases. In our case, I'm pretty sure it's rooted in the fact that dh and I haven't done a good job of teaching the whys behind work. (In our case, this is not so much because dh and I have failed to pass on the whys we live by but that the whys we live by are crappy, crappy wrong - so not only have we failed to pass on the right reasons, we have "successfully" passed on the wrong ones .)

Between us and TV and books, the girls have imbibed the idea that the goal of life is to do what you want, and this is reflected in their characteristic protest, "But I don't *want* to! " I think that even parents who (unlike us ) have a robust, healthy, Biblical view of work (it's one of the main arenas for us live out the Ten Commandments, to love our neighbors by serving them) can still have problems passing that on and effectively instilling it in their kids with all the competing messages out there.

Anyway, for me and my fledgling attempts to recenter my view of work from "something that interferes with what I really want to do " to "work is a prime way of living out my love for my neighbor, a place where I can serve and bless others" , it's been helpful for me to take a step back from "making work tolerable by finding a way to make it something I *want* to do". There's nothing wrong with wanting to enjoy one's work, but when you're trying to break out of "what I want is my driving motivation in life" , that continued focus on "making work something I like" doesn't help . BTDT, got the t-shirt, and it's a very empty life indeed .

Rather, I'm trying to change my language to reflect my change in the ultimate "why" behind work - from "because I like it, or it's worth it because it gets me what I want" to "because this is a way for me to love others". It's a reflection of my overall change from a life spent seeking pleasure and avoiding pain to trying to seek God's will. And God's will for my life on earth is that I love my neighbor by serving them through my vocations, through my work as a mother, daughter, wife, citizen, neighbor.

IDK if any of that helps, but I have been *shocked* at how my middle daughter so clearly articulates the secular Western worldview and bases her reasoning about how things should be on it. Some of its stuff that I probably covertly taught her because of my hidden-even-to-me life goal of doing what I want (except when sacred duty spoke against it), but it was definitely reinforced all those fluffy kids' shows that emphasize solving the duty/wanting conflict by turning duty into something you want. Because in the end, life is about doing what you want - and duty gets done by turning it into something you want. But no matter how outwardly moral you act because of that, it's still such a hollow and empty life - because it's a life with *you* at the center, with *you* as the ultimate judge, with you as your own god . And I think that a lot of Christian parents have adopted the "make duty something you want" technique and taught it to their kids without realizing that their kids weren't putting it in the Christian worldview of the parents, but instead were incorporating that into a more secular view of life. (Of course, my experience was that *I* was the person who was inadvertantly secularizing my Christian beliefs by adopting not just a secular technique but also was incorporating the secular worldview behind it .)

[milkmommy]

My 12 year old overall no longer "complains" but she still conveniently ignores her chores. I haven't found anything to magically helps her to remember be it a consequence or a reward.. I just find that I have to say. Chores now and I expect her to obey with out fuss. She also knows that a sloppy job means a re do and the possibility of added chores. Especially weekend stuff. I dont typically require weekend chores beyond there own space.. so yea if needed we go there...
My 5 year old who has very little she is required has just recently started the why do you always make me do chores! bit... Overall though she is still willing to help and eager to do a good job.
The majority of Chores we do together after school time. the girls are incharge of there own rooms which I expect to stay clutter free but I'm not super big on it looking perfect. Cecilia is in charge of unloading the dishwasher either at night or in the morning depending on when it is run. She does meal dishes a few night a week. She is also in charge of making sure the main bathroom is tidy each morning.
Margaret has her room, setting and helping to clear the table after meals
Chores such as mopping vacuuming dusting deep cleaning bathrooms etc falls into our family chore time..
and everyone helps out with laundry....

[BlessedBlue]

Oh goodness. I'm such a slacker mom. I have had people tell me my entire parenting career that I need to be assigning chores, and making the kids help out (ostensibly to make my life easier). And while I do feel there is value in establishing the routine, I have found it is 2 or 3 times the work to get my kids involved in chores. Not only do I need to convince them to do the chore, usually I have to do it with them. And then once we're done, I have to redo the chore, because they're kids, and they don't get it right.

If assigning chores was a principled thing, then I could understand. But IMO, chores are about getting things done. Doing them 3x instead of once seems a poor investment of my time.

Then there is the whole immaturity factor. Doing something because it is the right thing to do is quite a mature response. Not wanting to do something, because you don't want to do it is completely expected for a child. It's immature, as children are, and self-centered, again as children are. Yes, it is our job to guide them to maturity, and to teach them to think beyond themselves, but to expect them to have a handle on this at 6, 9, 13 or even 18 is a bit ambitious. Would it make our lives as parents easier? Of course! But I'm not parenting my children to be convenient people.

What I have found, with my slacker attitude, and benign neglect in this area, is that my kids are eager to help, feel proud of accomplishment, take ownership of helping the family out because they get to participate in what they view as an adult activity.

This is not to say that their toys always get picked up and put away, or that the rugs are perfectly vacuumed, or even that my sink is empty of dirty dishes. But my expectation is that I will need to frequently remind them to do things, and that they will be done imperfectly, and that if it's really important to me, then I need to be willing to invest the time *myself*. My eldest child (who, quite frankly is the one that has been the messiest with things) has started, on her own, to reassess and take ownership of getting things done. Now that she is in a teachable state of mind, I'm taking advantage of it. But a teachable attitude is the key. You can't force that into place.

My children's personalities play a huge role in this as well. My eldest is the one I've had the most friction with as well, so it's not surprising that it has taken her longer than average to reach this place. The younger siblings have been more eager to please and willing to help out - so they have been given smaller responsibilities along the way. I still need to remind them to get things done, and I expect to have to because I am fully cognizant that it is much more fun to keep playing, than it is to stop and put things away.

[rcsmom]

We have a saying in our house for when the boys whine about chores "It doesn't have to be fun it just has to be done".

[Dovenoir]

42, I would love to hear more of your thoughts on how culture kills work ethic.

[Soliloquy]

When I clean my house, I do it for myself. I love living in a clean, organized house. I love being able to go barefoot so I sweep daily. I love knowing that friends can pop in any time and my house is pleasant. I cannot relax with a book if the living room is in disarray. I find great pleasure in sitting down in a well-organized room.

My family doesn't care nearly as much as I do. If I tell myself I'm doing it for them, it's just not true. I don't think my friends really care, either. I know that I don't care, when I visit a friend, how "lived in" her house looks, as long as we're not talking hoarder-type filth.

I was naturally tidy as a child with my own things and with my own room. I absolutely hated doing chores that my mom asked me to do but I would happily clean all day with my grandma when she came over to babysit, which she did long after I stopped needing a babysitter because she was lonely. I'm trying to think what was the difference between my mom and my grandma. I think the biggest one was that my grandma always did chores with me, while my mom told me to do something.

[milkmommy]

I think the biggest one was that my grandma always did chores with me, while my mom told me to do something.

going from mostly assigned chores to a more family chore times has made a huge difference. Chore time is now family time its time we turn on music and enjoy conversation. The girls have friendly competitions on who finishes first and who can do the most in about 30 minutes. Its lowered my stress level like 200%

[CelticJourney]

Originally Posted by BlessedBlue

Oh goodness. I'm such a slacker mom. I have had people tell me my entire parenting career that I need to be assigning chores, and making the kids help out (ostensibly to make my life easier). .......

Oldest is 20, middle is 17, ds is 9 - we have never had established chores, so you are not alone. We have always done a 'team work' approach.

When they were young, we did 'commercial cleanup' (to avoid all those tacky commercials) or 'half-time clean up' or simply set a timer and ran around like a group of happy crazy people seeing how much we could get done in 20 min. This normally involved me saying 'ok, now do x' and when x was done 'alright, tackle y'. It's harder to complain about working when everyone is working at the same time.

When things need to be done now, I either ask of them to 'handle x' that day or we do a 'domestic hour' in which we can get the floors vacuumed (carpeted and not), all the dusting done, bathrooms clean, at least one load of laundry 'processed' and most of the mopping done in less than an hour....then back to our lives.

That's not to say they don't do chores separate from me asking (two are practically grown women after all), it's just that they are more in the habit of 'see a job, handle the job' pattern at this point.

A side note:

my girls do empty the dishwasher now, but when they were younger they didn't because of knives. We had a close friend who was murdered and the idea of handling the knives made the girls nervous.

I'm not saying that having a routine is a negative, just wanted to offer a different approach that worked for us.

[rjy9343]

I still have an attitude about chores and I am 34.
I am trying to not pass on my bad attitudes with chores to Ivy and later Jacob. So I do them with her and will sometimes just do them for her so that she has some happy memories with them. I have a hard time not losing my grip when she trashes what we just did, but it's to be expected. I also do the five minute challenge at home with her or make it a race to see who gets more done. (I usually let her win so that she enjoys them).
Chores were a living nightmare for my brothers and me when we were kids. We all have hang ups about them now and two of us struggle with how to teach our kids how to do them. Or even assigning them to our kids. Ivy fights me tooth and nail if she has to pick up two toys in the living room by herself. But she will gladly clean an entire room if I help her. Even that help looks like me saying pick up this item and put it in that box. I also explain why we do chores at home. We need to eat, so cooking must be done. It's not fair to ask Papa to come home from work and do more work. Or we need clean clothes, so we do the laundry because Papa works outside the home so we can take care of it. You get the idea. I basically am trying to show her how we cooperate with each other so that we can have fun as a family. We also go out of our way to praise anything she does to help and thank her for it.

[The Tickle Momster]

[QUOTEI was naturally tidy as a child with my own things and with my own room. I absolutely hated doing chores that my mom asked me to do but I would happily clean all day with my grandma when she came over to babysit, which she did long after I stopped needing a babysitter because she was lonely. I'm trying to think what was the difference between my mom and my grandma. I think the biggest one was that my grandma always did chores with me, while my mom told me to do something.][/QUOTE]

This is my oldest daughter. Totally.

We have a few set chores, but most of the time, on a slower day, I'll tell the kids, I have 4 chores that need to get done today. You can decide how to divide them. They usually do it without too much trouble. Biggest issue is when chores overlap locations. I chalk that up to kids being kids.

[rjy9343]

Chores are not fun and they take time away from fun things. As an adult, I understand that's life and that's just how it is. But that doesn't mean I don't do a lot of internal whining and complaining. It just means I am the only one who hears it and then I suck it up. I think it is a bit much to expect a nine year old to do that.
Is there a way to make the chores more fun for her? Maybe turn it into a game somehow? Or let her listen to music or an audio book as she does them? At least then she would learn how to make unpleasant things in life a bit more pleasant as she gets older.

---------- Post added at 01:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 PM ----------

Another thing could be a reward of some kind for every time she does her chores quickly and cheerfully. It doesn't have to be a big thing, just letting her stay up an extra thirty minutes before bedtime or an extra book at the library, something like that.
I use little things like that to motivate myself to do things I don't like. For example, I hate cleaning the bathrooms, so I used to treat myself to really nice bubble bath after I cleaned them. (Before I had kids, that was possible. Now I just enjoy having a sanitary bathroom). Or I have a cup of tea in my nice clean living room or watch a show in my clean bedroom.

[forty-two]

Originally Posted by Dovenoir

42, I would love to hear more of your thoughts on how culture kills work ethic.

I'll give it a go - I came to it as part of a larger issue and I've never tried to discuss this bit separately, so idk if I'll manage the right amount of Highly Pertinent Backstory , so that it's intelligible yet not overwhelming .

Let's start off with some definitions. There's "work ethic" meaning "a person's attitudes, feelings and beliefs about work" or "a set of moral principles an employee uses in his job", whatever they may be (good/bad, strong/weak, effective/ineffective, middling, etc.). And there's "work ethic" meaning the "the principle that hard work is intrinsically virtuous or worthy of reward" or "a belief in the moral benefit and importance of work and its inherent ability to strengthen character" - aka meaning a particular work ethic, often called the Protestant work ethic.

I'm using "work ethic" here in the first sense (moral principles applied to work, where work is broadly defined (aka not just in a paid job)). And as a Christian, I believe those "moral principles" and "their application to work" ought to flow from Scripture, but I do *not* think the "Protestant work ethic" is the One True Christian work ethic . (Specifically I have issues with the idea of hard work as *intrinsically* virtuous and its *inherent* ability to strengthen character, plus issues with the idea that virtue is always rewarded in this life.) Rather, I believe that work is a means to an end, not an end in itself - specifically, that work is a means by which we live out our faith, as we follow the Ten Commandments (which define what it means to love God and love our neighbor) in all our thinking and saying and doing as we live out our various roles in life, Really, when I say "work ethic", I mean *both* the motivation and ability to follow God's Law (as summarized in the Ten Commandments) in every sphere of life, be it "secular" or "sacred". If "work ethic" means "moral principles as applied to work", then I see a *Christian* work ethic as "the Ten Commandments applied to work".

And this living out of the Christian faith flows from the Holy Spirit's work in us through God's grace given in Word and Sacrament. These good works do not save, but flow from that which *does* save, faith in Christ. Therefore success in these good works is not a reason for pride, and failure in these good works is not a reason for despair. Good works are a fruit of faith. Any lack in our fruit has one and only one remedy - the very same remedy that gave us and gives us saving faith - the forgiveness won by Christ on the cross and given to us by grace through faith .

Given that, here's what I see as parts of current Western culture that work against living out the Ten Commandments:

• the belief that feelings just *are* - they cannot be controlled and so they cannot count against you - it's not your fault if you feel wrongly - in fact, there is no such thing as feeling "rightly" or "wrongly" - you are only at fault if you *act* wrongly.
  
  
• the (somewhat contradictory) use of feelings to determine what is right or wrong (for you). Something that is right on paper, or that others outside you judge to be right - none of that matters if you just don't feel right about it. And likewise, if something feels right to you, then there's no reason to give it up just because it's traditionally been considered to be wrong. Even people who teach objective moral principles still appeal to a person's feelings as the reason they can know those principles are reliable and true - "hurting others hurts you".
  
  
• the belief that actions by themselves have no moral quality - rather, it's the act of freely choosing them that *gives* them moral meaning. Christian-influenced cultures have generally believed that it was not enough to do the right thing, but that for an action to be truly moral it must be the right action done for the right reason - the heart as well as the outward action had to be right. For many years, people saw God's Law as setting out the objectively right thing to do - so that an action could be morally right in itself even if it was done for the wrong reasons and so the *person* was acting immorally. Likewise, a person could do the objectively wrong thing for good reasons, and both the action and the person were morally wrong.
  
  However, as we have lost the idea of actions having intrinsic moral meaning - the idea of objective morality - we are left with morality as doing whatever neutral action we do for the right reasons. Christians still see God's Law as setting out the right reasons, which are of paramount importance, because actions apart from reasons are now morally *meaningless* instead being morally *insufficient*. And so you see the emphasis on not coercing or forcing a child to do "the right thing", because better they choose freely to do whatever neutral action they will (which is morally right or wrong based on their own inner motivations, which cannot be influenced by anyone save the person themselves and the Holy Spirit) than to do be coerced into doing a neutral action of someone else's choosing (which is morally damaging by definition). The moral habit that needs to be developed is not the habit of doing the objective right thing for the objectively right reasons, but rather the habit of freely *choosing* objectively neutral actions for the *right* reasons (be they subjective or objective). The content of the choice (the morally neutral action selected) is of far less import, morally speaking, than the act of choosing freely from right motivations. It's the *choice*, and the motivations behind the choice, that make an action *moral* (or immoral).
  
  And as applied to Christianity, it makes the moral heart of living as a Christian the act of freely *choosing* to be bound by God's Law - *zero* benefit (and much harm) comes from outwardly following God's Law for any other reason than freely choosing to do so. That's really the core innovation - that outwardly following God's Law for bad reasons is not just of no moral credit, but that it causes actual moral *harm* - it damages one's ability to develop moral reasoning, to choose actions freely, which is *the* moral activity. By this reasoning it is *better* for a person to freely act against God's Law than to be compelled to outwardly follow God's Law against their will.

Those three things combine to make a moral universe where actions are not inherently moral, but are *made* moral by the motivations that guided a person to freely choose to do them. And the prime source of moral guidance for those inner motivations are our inner feelings of rightness and wrongness. And those inner feelings are not under our conscious control, nor should be placed under the rule of a norm outside ourselves, but rather reflect our inner self or the inner guidance of the Holy Spirit or the influence of the universe on ourselves, or what have you - whatever inner spiritual guidance you seek. So we have moral justification to do what we want, to follow our deepest inner feelings.

So instead of taking every thought captive to the Word of Christ, instead of disciplining ourselves, body, mind, and soul, to submit to the outside objective rule of God's Law, we strive to follow God's Law inasmuch as we genuinely want to, and when our motivation is lacking, we are actively *discouraged* from doing anything that might actually help (like put ourselves in a position to hear God's Word or receive His Sacraments), because not only it is morally unhelpful, it's actually morally *damaging* to do "spiritual things" when you don't genuinely want to . (And because of the focus on one's inner experience as the only true seat of morality and spirituality, the objective means of receiving God's grace (hearing the Word and receiving the Sacraments) are denigrated as mere outward things compared to the the truly spiritual inner practices that come from the heart. Except the problem is that when our heart is lacking, we rather *need* God to come to us from the outside, to give us what we need even though - *especially* though - our motivations are all wrong .)

I got into that same mess with existential Lutheranism (which is the secular-friendly version of Lutheranism). They taught that *all* motivations for actively trying to do good works were morally wrong. Good works are spontaneously produced in us by the Holy Spirit, often without us noticing, and not only is there no way for us to help it along, there is no way for us to consciusly try to do God's will without falling into legalism. So the Christian life is one of consciously doing good work by the world's standards while God is busy doing His work through you by His standards, mostly without you even noticing. So there is pretty much *no* difference between the how a Christian is to seek to live life on earth and how an unbeliever seeks to live life.

And not only that, you get into the ticklish problem of how to deal with the good works of seeking out God's Word and the Sacraments, of what to do if you don't really desire them. Because God gives us His grace through His Word and Sacraments, aka God *justifies* us through the Holy Spirit's work through Word and Sacrament. If making an effort to act morally on earth is inherently legalism - you do what you do secularly while God does what He does sacredly - than how much more is making an effort to seek God's grace legalism! We teach that God works in us through the Word and Sacraments, but if we should be feeling low and not reallly genuinely *wanting* the things of God - aka, rather in need of God to work in us - we are *forbidden* from making an effort to seek out the very things we need - because legalism . So there we sit, recognizing we need God to work in us yet forbidden from seeking Him out . It's unliveable .

So, in short (too late ), I believe that a Christian work ethic is God's spiritual work in us and the temporal fruits that result from that work, wrt our living out the Ten Commandments in all aspects of our temporal life (including chores ). It includes both the God-given desire to do this and the temporal habits that make it practically possible to live that desire out. As a parent, I want to nurture both the desire and the habits in myself and my children, through Word and Sacrament. The desire births the habits, but without the habits, the desire can be frustrated and stifled, and both flow from the work of God in us.

I believe that modern Western culture has seriously denigrated the *moral* role of habital *actions*. The moral habit most sought is that of freely choosing for right reasons (where sometimes objectively right reasons are taught, and sometimes the person is left to come up with their own personal set of right reasons), and any habits that are sought are sought for strictly practical reasons - the only morality attached is what prompted a person to seek that habit in the first place. So having a habit instilled in you by others may be of practical service to you but it is of no moral service, and may in fact be morally damaging to you, because it makes an action you did not choose be automatic for you. And so parents are morally constrained from providing much practical moral guidance, outside of developing the habit of free choice, leaving the rest up to the person and their own unconstrained inner feelings, seen as the true source of authentic moral guidance.

But that's pretty antithetical to seeing the scope of morality as including *actions* and *emotions* as well as the will, which is what I believe the Bible teaches . Morality is not just a matter of our *choosing* between neutral options, but actions and feelings themselves have an inherent moral quality as well - "right actions" exist and "right feelings" exist and they matter just as much as "right reasons". (And yes, teaching "right actions" and "right feelings" that are for-real right is vitally important, as important as correctly teaching what the "right reasons" are. I sympathize with people who got burned by false teaching about God's Law , but I disagree that the right answer to that is to leave it up to each Christian to determine what constitutes God's Law for themselves - rather, the answer to the dangers of false teaching is to ever more diligently seek *true* teaching. To be clear, I do * not* believe that happy is the only acceptable emotion - for one, there's a lot bad crap in the world, and I don't think "happy" is a good way to feel about that. Also, remember I hold to the idea of adiaphora - things neither commanded nor forbidden by Scripture. Just because I believe there are right and wrong actions - no neutral ones - doesn't mean I think there's only *one* right action for any given situation . There are many right ways as well as wrong ways to live out the Ten Commandments in our current world .)

Plus, it is of *vital* importance to remember that God's Law is only *half* of what He has disclosed to us. Christians are supposed to live out our faith in our thinking, speaking, doing, and feeling, but that is a *fruit* of our faith, not what *maintains* our faith . Yeah, it's a daunting prospect to realize that not just our will and our actions have moral import, but so does our thinking and feeling. Who can control their *feelings*??? We can't do *that*! Very true - we *can't* - that's kind of the whole *point* of Christianity , that Christ came to save *sinners*, to save fallen people that *couldn't* save themselves, that *can't* follow the Law perfectly . We Christians live by *grace*, through *faith* in *Christ Jesus*. And every time we fail to follow the Law completely, in our thinking, speaking, doing, feeling, we are reminded anew of our *need* for that grace - so thanks be to God that not only has He has *given* it to us, He continues to *give* it to us anew .

Grace-based parenting is rooted in God's *grace*, which means it is rooted in *forgiveness* . Because the Law does not have the last word - rather, it's the *Gospel*, the Good News that for Christ's sake we are *forgiven* all our sins, that is our *true* reality . So no matter how much the Law rightly accuses us, we are not left there, under condemnation , but rather there is no condemnation in Christ . And grace-based parenting is all about living by and parenting by that reality, communicating it to our children as they rise and as they go to sleep and in all parts of life .

Any of that make any sense?

[forty-two]

I strongly agree with pp about the importance of teaching chores (or whatever we are trying to teach them) as something *we* all do (parents and children) instead of something parents make *children* do. (I know clean-up time here goes much better when I get up and work with them, even if I'm doing my own chores as they do theirs .)

It's the difference between teaching and indoctrination - are we teaching our children to live by the same truth we strive to live by ourselves, or are we teaching our children to hold values that do not hold us?

[Mother of Sons]

then pout when I point out everything she hasn't done when she insists she's finished. Those are the only things she's expected to do on a regular basis.

This stood out to me. My mom did this. When I did a job she would come to check and immediately point out everything I missed. It was sooo demoralizing. It got to the point that I went from trying my hardest to barely putting in any effort because I knew I was going to get the same response either way. She would ALWAYS find something I missed. I learned that there really was no "good enough" or at least that's how it felt to *me*. My mom felt that she obviously had to tell me what I missed or I would never learn to do it right. She wasn't trying to be overly critical but she was and it was discouraging.

The other thing I noticed that you said was that you don't expect her not to be unhappy about it but that she needs to find better ways to express it. Have you given her ideas for ways she can appropriately express how she feels about chores?

I don't think work has to be drudgery to be of value. A bathroom cleaned in misery is not cleaner than a bathroom cleaned amidst music and laughter. Can you come alongside her? "Hey you grab the bowls and I'll grab the silverware" or "I'm going to make muffins, while I listen to this cd. Come out away the dishes and listen with me."

[Soliloquy]

One of the things I remember from "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen ..." is noticing the things you appreciate rather than noticing the things you wish were done differently.

You picked up your stuffed animals!

Rather than

You left books on the floor.