Sin nature. - Page 2

MegMarch · 03-13-2013, 12:30 PM

I do not believe it is possible to punish the love of Christ into anyone. We believe kids can learn to speak and count and tie their shoes with support and encouragement, modeling and allowing repeated tries. It makes sense to me that we can teach other things this way as well. My job is to raise my child, not to save her, and punishment, shame, spanking can't save anyone anyhow.

twentysixcats · 03-13-2013, 05:48 PM

My mom uses total depravity as a reason to CIO, spank, etc. I really struggled with that when I first started exploring gentle discipline.

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Hilary316 · 03-13-2013, 08:59 PM

I am a Reformed Baptist and so I do believe we are totally depraved and have a sinful nature. But that's exactly why I believe children should be parented gently. I mean, saying a child has a sin nature is like saying a child is a human being. We ALL have a sin nature and are dead apart from Christ, why do I have the right to punish/hit my child just because he/she isnt converted yet? Makes NO sense to me. It really REALLY frustrates me how Reformed Christians are soooo into grace yet with their own children they are some of the most heavy handed I have come across. I dont get it. :/

ArmsOfLove · 03-13-2013, 09:01 PM

the sin nature is between God and the individual, and He has done a perfectly fine job in taking care of it (with the cross and all). I don't expect I have anything to *add* to that plan - though I do make my children aware of it and raise them with the expectation before them that they will/are in relationship with God because of that

the immediate behavior is between my children and me and I don't over-spiritualize childish behavior. I deal with the behavior, teach, model, correct, etc., and they respond.

Children are born with a sin nature, but they are also born with a desire to be social.

Hilary316 · 03-13-2013, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegMarch

I do not believe it is possible to punish the love of Christ into anyone. We believe kids can learn to speak and count and tie their shoes with support and encouragement, modeling and allowing repeated tries. It makes sense to me that we can teach other things this way as well. My job is to raise my child, not to save her, and punishment, shame, spanking can't save anyone anyhow.

^^Yes. This.

staceylayne · 03-13-2013, 10:04 PM

I'm really appreciating this discussion.

Where I see folks bringing up total depravity in regards to young children is the

"there that sin nature right there" response to things like a hungry baby crying (instead of what I'm not sure...tapping mom on the shoulder and asking nicely??

) or a two year old running away with a smile when called to come and other similarly "defiant" and "rebellious" behaviors by little people. It makes me

and

.

ArmsOfLove · 03-13-2013, 10:21 PM

I think the average person hear "sin nature" and think "God doesn't like what we do" without realizing that God clearly outlined what He does and doesn't like and NONE of it has anything to do with babies crying or jumping on the couch

God loves us . . . He loved us so much IN OUR SIN that He died to redeem us.

We love Him because He first loved us. If we are supposed to introduce our children to God, shouldn't we lead with the love?

LilacPhoenix · 03-13-2013, 10:34 PM

Eowyn · 03-13-2013, 11:14 PM

Romans 5:8 "...but God demonstrates his love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us!" (emphasis added)

The end.

bolt. · 03-14-2013, 05:42 AM

Another thing to add is that if people believe one of the biggest sins a child can comit is disobedience to patents... Isn't there a very easy way to have that happen less frequently? How about not giving direct commands quite so often? Why would a parent want to offer their child so many opportunities to 'sin' (not that I believe it is sin at young ages)? Doesn't that basically make them into a primary source of temptation? What team do they want to be on?

silverlining · 03-14-2013, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staceylayne

I'm really appreciating this discussion.

Where I see folks bringing up total depravity in regards to young children is the

"there that sin nature right there" response to things like a hungry baby crying (instead of what I'm not sure...tapping mom on the shoulder and asking nicely??

) or a two year old running away with a smile when called to come and other similarly "defiant" and "rebellious" behaviors by little people. It makes me

and

.

I remember my high school youth leader saying that if you want proof of original sin/sin nature just look at a newborn baby: sure, they're cute, but there's no more selfish creature in all the world. At the time, it made perfect sense to me. Now, I just

. My church was not one that advocated harsh treatment of children, but it's easy to see how this mindset can lead to abuse, because we shouldn't let them "get away with it". Babies are babies. They do what they know how to do, and their crying is no more sinful than breathing or sleeping.

marbles · 03-14-2013, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverlining

I remember my high school youth leader saying that if you want proof of original sin/sin nature just look at a newborn baby: sure, they're cute, but there's no more selfish creature in all the world. At the time, it made perfect sense to me. Now, I just

. My church was not one that advocated harsh treatment of children, but it's easy to see how this mindset can lead to abuse, because we shouldn't let them "get away with it". Babies are babies. They do what they know how to do, and their crying is no more sinful than breathing or sleeping.

I've heard this too. And that people who don't believe in total depravity obviously never had kids

it really just makes no sense. They command, the child "sins", they punish. I know some families like this and I just want to sometimes say "hey, have you ever thought about helping out any??"

arymanth · 03-14-2013, 09:23 AM

Sin is what happens on the inside, it is not what you do on the outside. If a child wants to hit his brother, but he does not because he is afraid of being punished... you have not dealt with the sin, which is the DESIRE to hurt his brother in the first place. All you have done is kept the sin from being seen on the outside. If you focus on replacing that sin with love, by teaching compassion, empathy, patience, forgiveness, then you are dealing with the sin. Love extinguishes sin the way light banishes darkness. Where there is love, there is no sin, it just cannot exist. The way to deal with sin is to sow LOVE. You cannot do this with punishment.

Christian parents often punish what they see as "sinful behavior" because they think they are making their child more pleasing to God. It might be a good idea to find out what God actually wants from us in the first place. The number one command God gives us is to LOVE HIM and LOVE EACH OTHER and he tells us that everything else hangs on these two things, so if you do not LOVE, then nothing else you do means anything. I Cor. 13 tells us that no matter how GOOD your behavior is, if you do not LOVE, it is completely worthless. So if you are making your child behave in a way you believe is pleasing to God, but this behavior is not motivated by love, God is not impressed. You have accomplished NOTHING. So what if he jumps to obey at your every command... if he is not obeying out of love, it is nothing. So what if she never talks back or argues, if the only reason she is "respectful" is because she knows that if she does, you will punish her? This does not please God, either.

If you truly want to make your children pleasing to God, you have to teach them how to love him. Punishments cannot do this. The best way to teach your kids how to love God is to demonstrate his love towards them. "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." "We love him because he first loved us." 1 John 4:19 "he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities." Psalm 103:10

My biggest hang-up when I was learning about gentle discipline was that I could not figure out how to make my kids "not sin" if I was not punishing them. Paul ran into that, too. "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?" Basically, if God isn't going to punish us, can we just do whatever we want?

Basically, Paul's answer was that because we were set free from the law, we are also free to CHOOSE to obey, not out of fear of punishment, but because of our relationship with Jesus. We learn through building our relationship with Him to make better choices, and when we DO miss the mark, we are told to "come boldly to the throne of Grace to find mercy and help in time of need".

So if we are going to model that relationship to our children, we have to treat THEM the way God treats US. We need to show them how to make good choices, and when they inevitably make poor ones, we extend grace and show them how to fix their mistakes.

THIS is how you deal with the sin nature, you irradiate it with the Love of God. You, as the parent, make love the foundation of your life, to the point that everything you do is directly motivated by your love for God. This is what will draw your child to God, not fear of being punished, but a personal understanding of what it means to be loved so fiercely and unconditionally. We love Him because he first loved us... LIVE God's love to your children. That's all he asks you to do. "Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself". THIS is the core of the Gospel, this should be the core of every Christian home. If you love, you will not hurt others. If you love, you will not lie. If you love, you will not steal. If you want your kids to act this way, put love into them. " If you LOVE ME, you WILL keep my commands". The love has to come first.

So how does God deal with a sinful nature? With LOVE.

twentysixcats · 03-14-2013, 10:54 AM

Wow, arymanth, that was really good. I need to ponder on it more, so I can better answer those who challenge my discipline methods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverlining

I remember my high school youth leader saying that if you want proof of original sin/sin nature just look at a newborn baby: sure, they're cute, but there's no more selfish creature in all the world. At the time, it made perfect sense to me. Now, I just

. My church was not one that advocated harsh treatment of children, but it's easy to see how this mindset can lead to abuse, because we shouldn't let them "get away with it". Babies are babies. They do what they know how to do, and their crying is no more sinful than breathing or sleeping.

My mom firmly believes this. She always says that she doesn't know how people can have kids and not believe in original sin. She talks about things I did as a child that convinced her.

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TenderLovingWillow · 03-14-2013, 11:03 AM

My parents have told me that babies are pure selfishness to, because none of it has been trained out yet.

03-13-2013, 12:30 PM	#16
MegMarch Rose Garden Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 5,922	Re: Sin nature. I do not believe it is possible to punish the love of Christ into anyone. We believe kids can learn to speak and count and tie their shoes with support and encouragement, modeling and allowing repeated tries. It makes sense to me that we can teach other things this way as well. My job is to raise my child, not to save her, and punishment, shame, spanking can't save anyone anyhow.

03-13-2013, 05:48 PM	#17
twentysixcats Rose Garden Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 6,404	My mom uses total depravity as a reason to CIO, spank, etc. I really struggled with that when I first started exploring gentle discipline. Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2 __________________ Ashley (ISFJ) mom to three beautiful girls! DD1 (8/2009) DD2 (7/2012) DD3 (9/2014)

03-13-2013, 08:59 PM	#18
Hilary316 Rose Blossom Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 223	Re: Sin nature. I am a Reformed Baptist and so I do believe we are totally depraved and have a sinful nature. But that's exactly why I believe children should be parented gently. I mean, saying a child has a sin nature is like saying a child is a human being. We ALL have a sin nature and are dead apart from Christ, why do I have the right to punish/hit my child just because he/she isnt converted yet? Makes NO sense to me. It really REALLY frustrates me how Reformed Christians are soooo into grace yet with their own children they are some of the most heavy handed I have come across. I dont get it. :/ __________________ ...Hilary... mommy to Charlotte (12/08) Clara (11/10) Benjamin (12/12) Luke (7/15)

03-13-2013, 09:01 PM	#19
ArmsOfLove Rose Garden Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 79,607	Re: Sin nature. the sin nature is between God and the individual, and He has done a perfectly fine job in taking care of it (with the cross and all). I don't expect I have anything to add to that plan - though I do make my children aware of it and raise them with the expectation before them that they will/are in relationship with God because of that the immediate behavior is between my children and me and I don't over-spiritualize childish behavior. I deal with the behavior, teach, model, correct, etc., and they respond. Children are born with a sin nature, but they are also born with a desire to be social. __________________ Crystal "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." Maya Angelou

03-13-2013, 10:04 PM	#21
staceylayne Rose Garden Hopeful. Join Date: May 2011 Location: Dallas (ish) Posts: 3,596	Re: Sin nature. I'm really appreciating this discussion. Where I see folks bringing up total depravity in regards to young children is the "there that sin nature right there" response to things like a hungry baby crying (instead of what I'm not sure...tapping mom on the shoulder and asking nicely?? ) or a two year old running away with a smile when called to come and other similarly "defiant" and "rebellious" behaviors by little people. It makes me and . __________________ Married in 2003 to my favorite person in the wide world Joyful momma to: B - 7.5, my pensive planner D - 5.5, my spunky sunshine C - 3.5, my cuddly cutie And baby girl A, born April 28! Why, yes, I am ENFP But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. James 3:17-18

03-13-2013, 10:21 PM	#22
ArmsOfLove Rose Garden Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 79,607	Re: Sin nature. I think the average person hear "sin nature" and think "God doesn't like what we do" without realizing that God clearly outlined what He does and doesn't like and NONE of it has anything to do with babies crying or jumping on the couch God loves us . . . He loved us so much IN OUR SIN that He died to redeem us. We love Him because He first loved us. If we are supposed to introduce our children to God, shouldn't we lead with the love? __________________ Crystal "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." Maya Angelou

03-13-2013, 10:34 PM	#23
LilacPhoenix Rose Garden E's newborn feet; G's 3-yr-old feet Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 8,478	Re: Sin nature. __________________ CMB Wife of P (May 2018) Mommy to two terrific boys, E (July '07) and G (Dec '09), and "bonus mommy" to B (Sept '11) INFPs are a FiNe SiTe to behold! DYT 1/2 My recipe blog! Recipes "I need to live life like some people never will... To ride the wings of dreams into changing horizons." Dream Theater

03-13-2013, 11:14 PM	#24
Eowyn Deactivated I am no man! Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: KS Posts: 26,727	Re: Sin nature. Romans 5:8 "...but God demonstrates his love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us!" (emphasis added) The end.

03-14-2013, 05:42 AM	#25
bolt. Rose Trellis Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Posts: 2,963	Re: Sin nature. Another thing to add is that if people believe one of the biggest sins a child can comit is disobedience to patents... Isn't there a very easy way to have that happen less frequently? How about not giving direct commands quite so often? Why would a parent want to offer their child so many opportunities to 'sin' (not that I believe it is sin at young ages)? Doesn't that basically make them into a primary source of temptation? What team do they want to be on? __________________ Everything written here is the musing and mumblings of an ordinary person. Even if I take myself too seriously, there's no reason for any of you to make the same mistake! Pam, 35 yo Christian for 20 y Married for 15 y Mother to "J" 8 yo, and "M" 5 yo INTJ, DYT 4, Canadian 1 more class until I'm done at Seminary Adjunct Faculty at a Bible College

03-14-2013, 09:23 AM	#28
arymanth Rose Bouquet Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: NE Wisconsin Posts: 959	Re: Sin nature. Sin is what happens on the inside, it is not what you do on the outside. If a child wants to hit his brother, but he does not because he is afraid of being punished... you have not dealt with the sin, which is the DESIRE to hurt his brother in the first place. All you have done is kept the sin from being seen on the outside. If you focus on replacing that sin with love, by teaching compassion, empathy, patience, forgiveness, then you are dealing with the sin. Love extinguishes sin the way light banishes darkness. Where there is love, there is no sin, it just cannot exist. The way to deal with sin is to sow LOVE. You cannot do this with punishment. Christian parents often punish what they see as "sinful behavior" because they think they are making their child more pleasing to God. It might be a good idea to find out what God actually wants from us in the first place. The number one command God gives us is to LOVE HIM and LOVE EACH OTHER and he tells us that everything else hangs on these two things, so if you do not LOVE, then nothing else you do means anything. I Cor. 13 tells us that no matter how GOOD your behavior is, if you do not LOVE, it is completely worthless. So if you are making your child behave in a way you believe is pleasing to God, but this behavior is not motivated by love, God is not impressed. You have accomplished NOTHING. So what if he jumps to obey at your every command... if he is not obeying out of love, it is nothing. So what if she never talks back or argues, if the only reason she is "respectful" is because she knows that if she does, you will punish her? This does not please God, either. If you truly want to make your children pleasing to God, you have to teach them how to love him. Punishments cannot do this. The best way to teach your kids how to love God is to demonstrate his love towards them. "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." "We love him because he first loved us." 1 John 4:19 "he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities." Psalm 103:10 My biggest hang-up when I was learning about gentle discipline was that I could not figure out how to make my kids "not sin" if I was not punishing them. Paul ran into that, too. "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?" Basically, if God isn't going to punish us, can we just do whatever we want? Basically, Paul's answer was that because we were set free from the law, we are also free to CHOOSE to obey, not out of fear of punishment, but because of our relationship with Jesus. We learn through building our relationship with Him to make better choices, and when we DO miss the mark, we are told to "come boldly to the throne of Grace to find mercy and help in time of need". So if we are going to model that relationship to our children, we have to treat THEM the way God treats US. We need to show them how to make good choices, and when they inevitably make poor ones, we extend grace and show them how to fix their mistakes. THIS is how you deal with the sin nature, you irradiate it with the Love of God. You, as the parent, make love the foundation of your life, to the point that everything you do is directly motivated by your love for God. This is what will draw your child to God, not fear of being punished, but a personal understanding of what it means to be loved so fiercely and unconditionally. We love Him because he first loved us... LIVE God's love to your children. That's all he asks you to do. "Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself". THIS is the core of the Gospel, this should be the core of every Christian home. If you love, you will not hurt others. If you love, you will not lie. If you love, you will not steal. If you want your kids to act this way, put love into them. " If you LOVE ME, you WILL keep my commands". The love has to come first. So how does God deal with a sinful nature? With LOVE. __________________ Stephanie, Mom to Seven Sensational Kids... Christopher -24, Jordan -21, Ian -19, Benjamin -16, Ivy -14, Josie -7 and Ronen -4 and creator of IvyRose Spica Chairs Now blogging at The Shepherd's Apprentice

03-14-2013, 11:03 AM	#30
TenderLovingWillow Rose Garden Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 8,673	Re: Sin nature. My parents have told me that babies are pure selfishness to, because none of it has been trained out yet. __________________ WILLOW Mom to Four Munchkins Birth Doula Childbirth Educator Babywearing Educator *Vegetarian

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