Am I permissive or is this normal?

[Bea423]

Help! My 3 yo (and sometimes 2 to)seems out of control to me. I am very tempted to at least reinstate time outs and sometimes I feel like spankings would be easier and more peaceful over all. So... Help.

Ex:1
DRAWING ON THE WALL. Oh my gosh. I've thrown all the crayons away, pens are kept up, lots of paper and art stuff happens... And it won't stop. We rent and will have to pay to repaint every room but the bathroom. They (especially 2yo) now just uses toys to SCRAPE THE PAINT. If I were time outing and spanking this would likely have stopped by now and we wouldn't have to she'll out cash we don't have. I have them wash (but it doesn't come off because the wall paint is that crappy apartment paint) and we put whatever has been used away. If I see them before it happens, I immediately direct them to paper "That's not paper! You can ask me for paper if you want to color, here." Then I stay right close and put everything away. I just found them drawing in the closer with a dark green crayon tip that was broken off and apparently hiding somewhere. I'm ed. I DO watch my kids but I have 3 and cannot supervise every single second. Yes they get alone time.

Ex 2:" it's time to get dressed" "NO I WILL NOT DONT TOUCH ME GO AWAY" *slams door*. What the heck??? I was smiling! I know how to enforce the boundary of getting dressed... WHAT about acting that way. I'm all for expressing emotions and validating but... What about acting in a way that they need to learn is not ok???

Ex 3: physically hurting eachother. I am as close as possible as much as possible but they fight at least 10 times a day. "MINE" *smack* (2 yo) "grrrrrr!!!! DONT HIT ME!!!" (3 yo) *full speed charge at 2 yo that ends in punching or hitting*. When I cannot stop those moments, we focus on restoration and reconnection. When I'm close I block hits and sport cast. I remove someone if needed.

Ex 4... I've tried every gentle suggestion out there and bedtime is awful. They take up 2 1/2 hrs EVERY NIGHT No matter how early or late or the routine or if they play quietly in their room (that's a joke) until they're ready or stay up forever.... It's crying kicking, seizure like fits and begging and weeping and clawing at the door.. Or our bodies or whatever. Bedtime sucks and is awful for everyone UNLESS we lay in there for 2 hrs exactly how they want us to lay and not move till deeply asleep. That would be fine if it wasn't 2 hrs. Ya, I kinda think spanking might help at least restore some balance. We have been consistAnt for MONTHS and nothing is changing.

I don't like my 3 yo a lot of the time. He's wonderful and great AWAY from the house. And of course I love how fun and loving he is. I just am tired of feeling like I can't seem to NOT engage in a power struggle ALL DAY LONG. My house is trashed... I have reduced and reduced (and we don't have much to begin with) and it's a fight every time we clean up "no I won't. I'm not going to." I've done playful parenting, I've tried just modeling... I get it, it's not fun but seriously EVERY TIME. Is there ever a point where parenting is peaceful??? I'm starting to yell, I'm starting to feel punitive, I'm looking at my peaceful friends who only occasionally spank (I reeeeally believe in GBD so I don't say this lightly) and I see that they and their kids have so much more peace over all. I'm feeling super discouraged. I need encouragement, I can offer any details you need, I need some specific help because I'm at my limit. I don't see how I can continue without instituting some consequences like time out or SOMETHING for when the natur/logical consequences (like the walls) do nothing.

[mamacat]

There should be a whole forum here for 3 yr olds! It can be so hard.Would not tell him or ask him about getting dressed but say something like after I have gotten you dressed you can (whatever - play outside,have a snack etc.) choose your battles.If you arent going outside he can have jammie or underwear days.suspect 2 & 3 yr olds are feeding off of each others behaviors. For now just ignore negative reactions.So the 2 & 3 yr old in same room? Same bed? Can you try a pre bedtime leg rub with magnesium gel? Putting in beds and you sitting in chair with a book on tape each night? Or lying between them with book on tape?2 & 3 is just not the age of reasonableness or logic so consequences dont always work for them

[ArmsOfLove]

All normal, but, yes, some of the response sounds permissive.

What are you proactively doing to address these things?

And, no, spankings don't stop 2 and 3 yo's from being 2 and 3 - they just get out all the rage building up in you and calm you down. Much better to address both issues and channel them into healthy releases and invite some peace into your home

[MudPies]

3 is the hardest age. All your examples happen in our house except number 4.

Num 1- do they get enough sensory play? Pink is my only wall drawer and she does it more when she is not getting enough of what we call art (play dough, cutting paper, basically fine motor hand stuff)

Number 2- I want my kids to express their emotions. They may not yell so I script. "Yelling at mommy is not ok. You may say I am mad or I don't want to get dressed right now or whatever"

Number 3- kids hit. Spanking them just teaches them it is ok to hit so it actually makes it worse. Mine usually outgrow this by 4. I re-direct, make them make amends and we practice gentle hands.

Num 4: can you tell us your bedtime routine? Do you expect them to fall asleep by themselves? None of mine do that yet. If you write out tons of details we can help you. What time do they nap? What time is bedtime? Do they wake in the night? Do they get scared? It is normal for bedtime to take a good hour though.

The toddler ages are tough.

[HomeWithMyBabies]

You have three? Are they all under three? A three year old and a two year old is pretty intense I would imagine.

Those behaviors sound fairly typical to me for those ages but they do need to be addressed. They are asserting themselves as individuals, but at the same time that is a scary process. There is a three year old sticky around here somewhere that might help you. What makes you think the behavior would have stopped by now if you were using punitive measures?

I expect a certain level of respectful speech and behavior from my kids but I do not expect them to accomplish it without any prompting at that age. Reflecting their emotions and offering a more appropriate way to phrase their expression will reinforce what you want them to do rather than focusing on the things you want to discourage. It does take some time, and you have to look at the behaviors as what they are, inadequate tools for self expression.

Clean up involved some hand over hand participation on my part at that age, when playful parenting didn't get the job done. If it was too difficult, such as a particular game with too many pieces, we packed it away and tried again in a few weeks or months. It's ok to say this certain toy is adding too much stress to the household so we all need a break from it.

Are they napping? When bedtime takes that long I start to reevaluate the usefulness of naps. It is a hard transition and takes several months to drop naps IME, but I have heard this from all manner of parenting styles. Are they getting morning sunshine and lots of exercise? That helps so much.

Physically hurting someone is my trigger as a parent so I understand that might make you see red. It does for me. Focusing on relationship building between the siblings has been the most beneficial at my house. I assume they want to interact appropriately but don't yet have the skills. So I will be there actively teaching them those skills as much as I can, as well as facilitating their bond through shared experiences like reading books together.

I think I touched on everything but I'm typing from my kindle so I might have missed something. I just wanted to mention one last thing, you don't need to have a power struggle. You have authority right now. The children do not, and they will not have a chance at that unless you make it a battle. If you can internalize that, take a few deep breaths and remind yourself in those moments that you are the mom. You don't need to prove it to anyone, just guide them towards the behaviors you want to see rather than focusing on the behaviors you don't.

[saturnfire16]

Nothing is going to make 2 and 3 year olds stop acting like 2 and 3 year olds. When my oldest was 3, I thought a lot of "She should KNOW by now," because I'd told her 32345 times, but she didn't know. Or she did, but didn't have the impulse control. It wasn't until she was 5 or 6 and I had another 2/3 year old that I realized that I had been expecting her to act like a 5 year old at 2 and 3.

With bed time, try to make it something peaceful and happy and relaxed. Maybe don't even mention "bed" or "sleep" for a while, since right now they associate those things with stress and fighting. Invite them to snuggle on the couch with you and watch a movie. Lights off, sounds down, some camomile tea and a snack, a soft blanket, and back massage. Do it at the time when you actually see they are getting tired (but before they are in that exhausted but wound up state), not at 7 because society says kids should be in bed at 7 (or whatever time you are doing).

[Aerynne]

With getting dressed I use a lot of "As soon as you are dressed, we will. . . " then I don't fight them on it. It might be a trip, an activity, or simply a meal or a snack.

For drawing I would probably get some color wonder stuff and leave it where the 3yo can get it whenever he wants, but then the drawing on the walls doesn't show up.

When it comes to clean up, my kids have a choice. They can clean it up (and I help the little ones) or I will clean it up. If I have to do it myself without them working, I put it away away where they can't get to it and don't give it back for awhile. Most kids have too many toys and are simply overwhelmed with clean up. I use their willingness to clean up as a gauge for how many toys we should have out. If it's too overwhelming for them to clean up, then we have too many toys. There have been times where we've only had one or two things out because of that. When they get to the point that they can do more, we get out more.

[mamacat]

also for all ages of kids would make sure they know how to clean up and not even say those words but use other terms like when all of these bears are back in the basket then we will be ready to go outside.That both instructs and directs at same time.Would also at these ages not let them have free access to all of the toys especially those with lots of parts or pieces.Otherwisethey just tend to pull out all of the stuff and make a big messy soup out pf it.Can set a timer and make a game of cleanup maybe teling the 2 yr old all of the bears need to go back in the basket and the 3 yr old something on his level - all of the duplos need to go back in this bin

[OnAMission]

I have three (well, now four), that close, and you need lots of hugs

As others have said, some specifics might help with the bed time thing. With my first three at those ages, I thought I might go crazy at bedtime. I wish I had just relaxed and gone with the flow more (ie wait until they are actually tired before starting bed). I *thought* I had tried that a few times, but I didn't actually do it enough times in a row to figure out their tired cues .

I have figured out recently that waking them earlier at a consistent time (and it takes minimally 10 days, maybe more, to see a difference) also helps move bedtime to the time I would rather it be. BUT, for that to work, I need to be going to bed early enough so I don't feel crabby.

Here are some other things we have done at various points: lie there quietly with them and either fall asleep ourselves or read on the phone, set up audio books for them to listen to in bed, have them fall asleep in our bed then move them later, snack immediately before bed...no matter how close dinner is to bed time (this one drives dh crazy, but it really helps!), sharing a room with a sibling or sleeping on the floor in our room (too scary by yourself at that age!), water bottles by the bed. Mostly, a huge dose of "they are still very little and really need help falling asleep" patience and compassion...easier said than done.

Twos and threes, at least mine, cannot color by themselves under any circumstances for even a second. If I have to leave the room, the coloring implements leave with me, or I regret it. I would do a thorough search of every nook and cranny of your apartment, cabinets, and toy boxes to find any remaining coloring things and throw them away/put them up. Also, I don't know how you are reacting, but they might enjoy coloring on the walls if you have a big reaction. No matter how you feel inside, just a calm, "Uh oh! Colors don't go on the walls! Lets put them away and clean up" would make it less exciting. They do not have the ability to understand that they shouldn't, or why they shouldn't, and even if they could understand the principle, they do not have the self-control not to. Do you have the "magic eraser" things? They work reasonably well on most walls.

My almost-six year old understands how to clean up and with a little direction can clean even a pretty messy room. Everybody else needs a *lot* of help. We like singing songs like "clean up, clean up, everybody everywhere, clean up, clean up, everybody do your share" or Mary Poppins "A spoonful of sugar." I still do most of the cleaning for the three and under crowd (they are in the room with me, but may not be actively participating). My four year old, I help, but I expect her to actively participate. I usually have something fun for after cleaning up for us to look forward to. If cleanup is regularly difficult, then I make fewer toys available because "Part of having toys is taking care of them by cleaning them up. If you don't want to clean them up, then you are showing me you can't take care of them right now." But like I said, three and under I still do almost all of it with them with me and I make my own assessments about what they are actually playing with or just dumping out. It's amazing how little they really need to have fun! I talk about how to put all the duplos away, all the stuffed animals away, the dolls away, etc, and how nice it feels to have a clean room so they can play better again. Three year olds are probably capable of doing even more, but with so many littles, I figure they are learning other "getting along with others" skills and some of the cleaning ones I'll teach them all together when they are a little older, which is what I have done now that I have ones who are a little older.

For hitting/pushing/etc., not letting them be alone together in the first place is the best (way easier said than done!). Lots of big motor play seems to help mine - climbing on the playground, running around the backyard, playing with water or sand (sensory input!), a trampoline. Once I gave them my box of rags and a bucket of water and they rubbed designs on the fence around our yard Anything you can think of that gets them moving and has lots of sensory input. When we were in an apartment we got a fold-up play set thing. Even a little slide might help. My almost-three-year-old is a hitter, and he is finally starting to grow out of it with lots of redirection.

Whenever I am feeling overwhelmed, I reread the sticky about children being babies until five, so I should expect baby-like behavior, and plan accordingly: they will need help falling asleep; they will need help following directions; they will need to be set up for success because they have zero self-control; they will be hungry frequently; they will be teething or have growing pains, and it will make them fussy and cranky, but they will not have the words to say so. I am the one who creates the environment, sets them up for success, and am responsible for meeting all their physical needs. It's exhausting and hard but so worth it. "The days are long, but the years are short" is said around here, and it is true

ETA I forgot about the dressing thing. I usually just say, "I hear you saying you don't want to get dressed. It is the rule at xyz that we wear clothes and shoes, so we are getting dressed now." If we weren't going anywhere or expecting company, I didn't/don't bother. Sometimes asking, what is it that bothers you about the clothes might give some insight. My almost-three doesn't like the seam on socks. Once we got different socks he stopped fighting us putting his socks and shoes on. Who knew?

[mamacat]

That gross motor sensory is a huge thing. Mini trampolines that sort of thing.My ds used to bounce on exercise ball a lot

[gdzprncess]

Originally Posted by Bea423

Help! My 3 yo (and sometimes 2 to)seems out of control to me. I am very tempted to at least reinstate time outs and sometimes I feel like spankings would be easier and more peaceful over all. So... Help.

Ex 2:" it's time to get dressed" "NO I WILL NOT DONT TOUCH ME GO AWAY" *slams door*. What the heck??? I was smiling! I know how to enforce the boundary of getting dressed... WHAT about acting that way. I'm all for expressing emotions and validating but... What about acting in a way that they need to learn is not ok???

Ex 3: physically hurting each other. I am as close as possible as much as possible but they fight at least 10 times a day. "MINE" *smack* (2 yo) "grrrrrr!!!! DONT HIT ME!!!" (3 yo) *full speed charge at 2 yo that ends in punching or hitting*. When I cannot stop those moments, we focus on restoration and reconnection. When I'm close I block hits and sport cast. I remove someone if needed.

Ex 4... I've tried every gentle suggestion out there and bedtime is awful. They take up 2 1/2 hrs EVERY NIGHT No matter how early or late or the routine or if they play quietly in their room (that's a joke) until they're ready or stay up forever.... It's crying kicking, seizure like fits and begging and weeping and clawing at the door.. Or our bodies or whatever. Bedtime sucks and is awful for everyone UNLESS we lay in there for 2 hrs exactly how they want us to lay and not move till deeply asleep. That would be fine if it wasn't 2 hrs. Ya, I kinda think spanking might help at least restore some balance. We have been consistAnt for MONTHS and nothing is changing.

I hate 3. It's dramatic and rude and loud. I doubt your friends kids are that peaceful at home. Maybe 1 or 2 of them but even that's probably stretching it.

So... Why do you believe in GBD? It's been said many times on this board that 3 is really what makes you put your money where your mouth is.

Consequences are very much a part of gentle parenting. I'm wondering if you feel like gentle parenting means they won't get upset? They will. Often.

Troubleshooting: how often are y'all getting out of the house? Are you able to separate/contain at least one child at a time? What type of support do you have? Are they eating regularly? Do y'all have a routine?

Specifically addressing the scenarios (these are suggestions only, based on my experiences):

#3 You hit, you sit. If you both hit, you both sit. Hitting is never acceptable. Removal from the situation can be plan A instead of the last resort. Is there something they enjoy doing together? Do more of that.

#2 Ignore or rescript rudeness, but don't take it personally. A 3 year old is all over the emotional map, regardless of how reasonable or logical you are. Or cheery for that matter. Meltdown? To be regularly expected. So for stuff like getting dressed, brushing teeth, taking bath, going potty - all of which DS hated and resisted, I simply did, you can do it or I can do it. No answer? Okay, I'll help you do it.

[CelticJourney]

When I cannot stop those moments, we focus on restoration and reconnection. When I'm close I block hits and sport cast. I remove someone if needed.

What does this mean?

[jenny_islander]

Re drawing on the wall: The Devil finds work for idle hands. This is the time for things that can be mauled, squashed, smeared, bounced, jumped on, thrown, etc., without actually damaging the house. Those soft blocks that are sold for babies? They got a huge workout at 3. So did rain sticks (Noise! Repeatable noise!), putting big sheets of newsprint on the floor and handing them washable "toddler" crayons (they would just snap the regular fat kind to hear the noise), and turning on inane annoying songs for dancing. Also soft bouncy balls, anything that wobbled or twirled or could be led around on a leash or pushed, and those ridey toys that sit in one place and let you bounce on them. I never tried bath crayons, but I've heard good things about them. Also bath colors, bubble baths with lots of suds for making hats (get a small mirror), etc. Ooo, and big squishy sponges!

Re getting dressed: I have dressed more wailing children...Sometimes you just have to make it happen. Other times the countdown can help, because abrupt transitions tend to send a busy child into a tizzy. I.E., hold up 5 fingers and say, "This is 5. The next time I come over I will hold up 4 fingers. When I get to no fingers, it will be time to dress." Adjust the interval between counts depending on how much time is available, and start it at 3 instead of 5 if this seems better. Aaaand occasionally it's "Noooooo I don't wanna get dressed!" "But we have to because we are going, and it's cold out there." "Noooo!" "OK, you're going out just as you are." "*shiver shiver* Mommy, I'm cold." "This is why we dress warmly when it's windy. *takes proper clothing out of totebag and puts it on child*"

Or, if the issue is that the child is in long pajamas and you're going out in public...just smile and say that your 3 has declared today to be Pajama Day. Other parents will understand.

Re physically hurting each other: I have two 2 years apart who just fought like bull pups up and down the house. I imagine that 1 year apart has to be worse. They both have tiny impulse control and huge emotions. Refereeing just gets exhausting, doesn't it? And every.little.tiny.itty.bitty.thing is a reason for a fight! That said, here are a few things that helped me:

1. The timer. "See this? When it goes BEEP BEEP, it's your turn for the toy." (Not always effective.)

2. Declaring that Mr. Toy is tired of being fought over and will go up on the shelf now.

3. Regular meals, naps, and drinks. Kids do get hangry. And thangry. And tangry.

4. If you can't kick 'em outside, declare a regular rumpus hour (actually a half hour tops) during which, in a large open space, they dance, throw stuff, etc.

5. This may not be possible for you: Our couches are so decrepit that we let the kids jump on them. One kid per couch, or taking turns. When we replaced our queen size mattress, we kept it in the attic, and we brought it down every winter when the weather got really bad for jumping on. Perhaps some cheap air mattresses--? The need to jump and thump can be so maddening that little kids will attack each other, so help them let it out.

6. I had good results with simply telling one of my kids to go away until he could be nice. It snapped him out of it. Another responded to, "If you need to punch something, punch the couch." But every kid is different.

Re bedtime: Oh, goodness. This is beyond my experience. Messing around forEVer was a thing, but not crying and clawing at the door. It sounds like something is causing a feeling of insecurity--no, of fear.

[Mother of Sons]

If I were time outing and spanking this would likely have stopped by now

No it wouldn't have. I spanked in the early years with my first and it never solved a single problem. That's how I ended up finding the because I realized that spamming was not producing the perfect children I was promised.

Kids that age love a predictable routine. If I could to back and change those years I would have a routine and stick to it. Especially at bedtime. Make bedtime as boring as possible. Do the snack/Jammie's/teeth/story thing but when you start your routine turn off everything except the softest light. No tv, no radio unless it's soft classical which can help. No lights on all over. It's a signal that it's time for sleep. Do your routine and then sit with them but don't lay with them, it's a trap I tell you. When they move or fuss, stay calm and talk as little as possible. Don't give them anything to feed off of. A quiet gentle "it's time for sleep now" is he only thing you need to say and you will have to say it a lot in the beginning. It won't be overnight and there will be lots of crying but don't react to it or let them out of bed. Be there with them so they know they are safe but it's bedtime not play time. Split it up if you can so it's not two kids at once unless they share.

These years are hard no matter what discipline you use. Which one will you feel good about having used when your kids are older?

[OnAMission]

I have been thinking about bed (our greatest difficulty!), and I thought of a few more things we have done:

Put them all in the car and drive. Now this may not work as well in an apartment with extra doors, locks, stairs, etc, but there was a season when we did this almost every night. It gave dh and I a half hour when we could talk and kids were strapped in and it was dark. Even if they didn't fall asleep we were refreshed enough by the break and each other that we could handle bed better. The kids were either asleep or much calmer.

I have to remind dh of this one, but try bed for twenty minutes, if they are still awake, let then up for 20 min and try again. Repeat until they go to sleep. The out of the bed room time is used to address any physical needs (dry diaper/potty, drink, another snack, pain meds for teeth or illness, etc). This prevents it from being a battle that the parent must win, and shows the child that the parent is working to make things good and that sleep is a happy thing. During the out-of-bed time we do our thing (other than watch shows kids can't watch). We talk to each other, eat our dinner, and tell child that the grownups are tired and doing their evening thing. In other words, not interesting for children.

One other thing we have done, especially with dd2 who goes through phases of needing to be extra close, is to let her fall asleep in the living room with us. The rule is that she can't talk, otherwise back to her room. We set up a little bed with pillow and blanket on the couch, and she just needs the security of mom or dad to fall asleep while we chat and do our own thing.

HTH and you are doing ok