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Old 02-19-2008, 10:21 AM   #121
AttachedMamma
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Default Re: Spin off: Home school vs. public school at home

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie
Quote:
Originally Posted by AttachedMamma
Something worth reading that might bring some clarification.
http://www.chnow.org/id122.html
From that article:
"These programs are an attempt by public educators to create publicly-funded homeschooling; the only future they lead to is government-controlled homeschooling."

Am I correct that school vouchers for homeschooling would accomplish the same thing - add the element of government funding, and the government control that goes along with it?
I believe so. When I first started looking into HSing I was up in arms about "why don't we fight for some tax benefit". Then veteran homeschoolers educated me to understand that we don't want the govt involved--at all. We want to complete the least amount of paperwork and have the least amount of ties w/the govt or the funding. The more info you give them, the more they can use against you. It's not paranoia--it's protection.

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Old 02-19-2008, 10:24 AM   #122
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Default Re: Spin off: Home school vs. public school at home

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Originally Posted by elcollins
Quote:
If they are teaching their child at home then why isn't it homeschooling.
'Homeschooling' was a convenient label used to describe a level of parental autonomy and responsiblity that worked until the virual academy, etc were developed. The label was/is easy, but it was never intended to simply describe 'where' the child was being educated, but an educational experience and philosophy that is different from a charter or vs experience. By limiting the defintion, it is not intended to make any value judgement on our vs/cs sisters, only to preserve the original definition.
Yes! I really want moms to understand this. Independent HSers are not trying to make any value judgement on our vs/cs sisters. We want to protect you. We want to protect our homeschooling law from being re-defined.

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Old 02-19-2008, 10:37 AM   #123
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Default Re: Spin off: Home school vs. public school at home

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Savannah
Quote:
Consider denying membership to those enrolled in a government school-at-home program . . . . Remember that A little yeast works through the whole dough.
Wow. While I respect the right of real homeschoolers to draw lines and make distinctions, referring to those of us outside those lines in this way--fellow believers, some of us--is extreme. And wrong.

ETA: It is the attitude encapsulated in this article that caused my dh and I to say we would never homeschool. He had a lot of exposure to it, and it's a complete turn off.
I think if you really knew what pioneer homeschoolers went through to secure our homeschooling freedoms, you may have a better feel for where they are coming from.

While denying membership may seem harsh, I can understand it. I want to be in a support group or co-op with like-minded homeschoolers. While we all have our own style which best suits our family's needs, I need to feel that I am surrounded by HSers who have the same convictions as I do. A little yeast does work through the whole dough. If you have someone in a support group who is using VA, it grows. They start touting the virtues of "free curriculum/supplies" etc and perhaps a weary mom becomes enticed with the idea of the help or the $. The person who is using VA can't help the weary mom who is perhaps having financial trouble. The VA mom is operating from a different paradigm. What the weary mom needs is a HSing mom to give her money-saving tips, perhaps rally around her and take up an offering, bring meals, offer time mgmt tips, etc. But what if that weary mom happens to get into a conversation with the VA mom and sees it as the answer to her difficulties? And then she takes that route and it starts to grow throughout the group.
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Old 02-19-2008, 10:51 AM   #124
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Default Re: Spin off: Home school vs. public school at home

I don't hear any of the us vs/vcs mamas questioning the definition of homeschool. We're pretty much been saying "yeah, we don't homeschool, we school at home using a vs" What I do hear is hser's feeling threatened by the vs's and the families who choose to use them, and vs'ers being frustrated and hurt because they are often excluded or looked down upon. Which makes sense, I understand the difference in paradigm as Cindi pointed out.

It just seems like we're talking about more than one issue here.
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Old 02-19-2008, 10:52 AM   #125
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Default Re: Spin off: Home school vs. public school at home

Quote:
Originally Posted by AttachedMamma
But what if that weary mom happens to get into a conversation with the VA mom and sees it as the answer to her difficulties?
Wouldn't that be completely up to her though? When I was looking at VA programs, it was totally up front that it was certain curriculum and there were certain criteria. It wasn't hidden. I think even a weary mom would be able weigh the pros and cons and make the choice that's best for her family.
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Old 02-19-2008, 11:00 AM   #126
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Default Re: Spin off: Home school vs. public school at home

Quote:
I don't hear any of the us vs/vcs mamas questioning the definition of homeschool. We're pretty much been saying "yeah, we don't homeschool, we school at home using a vs"
I'm not sure the status of the poster, but I was responding to this:
Quote:
If they are teaching their child at home then why isn't it homeschooling.


Yes, there are several issues being addressed here and it's making me dizzy. I don't think homeschoolers are at all threatened by Vs or charter or 'other' schoolers UNLESS they claim to be 'homeschoolers' because then it blurrs the legal and political boundaries.
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Old 02-19-2008, 11:26 AM   #127
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Default Re: Spin off: Home school vs. public school at home

Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeWithMyBabies
Quote:
Originally Posted by AttachedMamma
But what if that weary mom happens to get into a conversation with the VA mom and sees it as the answer to her difficulties?
Wouldn't that be completely up to her though? When I was looking at VA programs, it was totally up front that it was certain curriculum and there were certain criteria. It wasn't hidden. I think even a weary mom would be able weigh the pros and cons and make the choice that's best for her family.
Back to the birth analogy, though . . . during transition anyone can be talked into using pain meds. I even did up my birth plan with the statement, "I know I'll want pain relief during transition--DO NOT OFFER IT TO ME!" If a mom is struggling and something outside her value system is offered *that* is when she is often tempted to try it--especially if it is being touted as a wonderful "option". A homeschool support group needs to be a safe place. Just like at GCM we don't allow suggestions to cio, wean, etc., for the mom in difficult times. It's not fair to join a "homeschooling group" and when you hit that crisis the *advice* given is for VS.

That said, I've already made clear we include VS'ers in our group. We just make sure they understand the position of the group and our goals
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Old 02-19-2008, 11:34 AM   #128
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Default Re: Spin off: Home school vs. public school at home

Quote:
Originally Posted by AttachedMamma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Savannah
Quote:
Consider denying membership to those enrolled in a government school-at-home program . . . . Remember that A little yeast works through the whole dough.
Wow. While I respect the right of real homeschoolers to draw lines and make distinctions, referring to those of us outside those lines in this way--fellow believers, some of us--is extreme. And wrong.

ETA: It is the attitude encapsulated in this article that caused my dh and I to say we would never homeschool. He had a lot of exposure to it, and it's a complete turn off.
I think if you really knew what pioneer homeschoolers went through to secure our homeschooling freedoms, you may have a better feel for where they are coming from.

While denying membership may seem harsh, I can understand it. I want to be in a support group or co-op with like-minded homeschoolers. While we all have our own style which best suits our family's needs, I need to feel that I am surrounded by HSers who have the same convictions as I do. A little yeast does work through the whole dough. If you have someone in a support group who is using VA, it grows. They start touting the virtues of "free curriculum/supplies" etc and perhaps a weary mom becomes enticed with the idea of the help or the $. The person who is using VA can't help the weary mom who is perhaps having financial trouble. The VA mom is operating from a different paradigm. What the weary mom needs is a HSing mom to give her money-saving tips, perhaps rally around her and take up an offering, bring meals, offer time mgmt tips, etc. But what if that weary mom happens to get into a conversation with the VA mom and sees it as the answer to her difficulties? And then she takes that route and it starts to grow throughout the group.
It was already stated that those in a VS or CS are different and that a different term is needed so "pure" homeschool can be protected and promoted. And I already said I understand the need for support of that movement. But that doesnt have to be done by excluding people. I used the example of GCM - this is a breastfeeding supportive environment and yet formula feeders are not excluded. They just understand they can't post contrary to the idea that breasfeeding is the norm and should be done if at all possible. This is a christian board but atheists can join so long as the dont post contrary to christian beliefs. There is no reason at all a co-op cannot impose the same rules. I am perfectly capable about keeping my mouth shut on why I am in a charter and restrict my conversations to things I have in common with others in the group.

Crystal posted while I did.
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Old 02-19-2008, 11:56 AM   #129
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Default Re: Spin off: Home school vs. public school at home

Sorry, Elizabeth, I didn't mean to seem to referring directly to what you stated (and Sue is actually a hser who is being encouraging to vs families ).

I was stating that in general in this thread, we keep coming back to the definition of "homeschool" and I wanted to point out that vs/vcs mamas are not arguing w/ or are un-supportive of that definition. We've been saying all along that we know we don't homeschool.
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Old 02-19-2008, 12:13 PM   #130
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Default Re: Spin off: Home school vs. public school at home

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove
Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeWithMyBabies
Quote:
Originally Posted by AttachedMamma
But what if that weary mom happens to get into a conversation with the VA mom and sees it as the answer to her difficulties?
Wouldn't that be completely up to her though? When I was looking at VA programs, it was totally up front that it was certain curriculum and there were certain criteria. It wasn't hidden. I think even a weary mom would be able weigh the pros and cons and make the choice that's best for her family.
Back to the birth analogy, though . . . during transition anyone can be talked into using pain meds. I even did up my birth plan with the statement, "I know I'll want pain relief during transition--DO NOT OFFER IT TO ME!" If a mom is struggling and something outside her value system is offered *that* is when she is often tempted to try it--especially if it is being touted as a wonderful "option". A homeschool support group needs to be a safe place. Just like at GCM we don't allow suggestions to cio, wean, etc., for the mom in difficult times. It's not fair to join a "homeschooling group" and when you hit that crisis the *advice* given is for VS.

That said, I've already made clear we include VS'ers in our group. We just make sure they understand the position of the group and our goals
Oh I can definitely understand have guidelines for a group, that's up to the group, I just think the part I quoted is a poor reason to exclude someone because people are responsible for their own choices.

There are some issues on which I tend to have a fight or flight response when pressured. Assuming VA parents go around pressuring people, if as a committed hs'er I felt strongly about not using one I would probably react strongly against the idea. If I wasn't pressured and it seemed like a reasonable and/or timely option for my family, then I'd be happy for the information. But if a hs'ing group would see a VA the way GCM handles cio or spanking advice I guess I'd feel a bit out of place anyway.
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Old 02-19-2008, 12:27 PM   #131
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Default Re: Spin off: Home school vs. public school at home

I didn't take offense - just like you said, lots of issues being discussed and so I was just clarifing.

So is the topic being dialogued right now about support groups? If so, I dont' think GCM is a good comparison because we are so big and have so many different areas of discussion. We can have a forumla mom come and read in discipline and theology and never encounter a breast-feeding thread, but homeschool groups can be very small and it would depend entirely on how hemmed in the VS/Charter mom was to her requirements as to whether the hs group could actually be supportive.
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Old 02-19-2008, 01:26 PM   #132
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Default Re: Spin off: Home school vs. public school at home

Quote:
Originally Posted by elcollins
I didn't take offense - just like you said, lots of issues being discussed and so I was just clarifing.

So is the topic being dialogued right now about support groups? If so, I dont' think GCM is a good comparison because we are so big and have so many different areas of discussion. We can have a forumla mom come and read in discipline and theology and never encounter a breast-feeding thread, but homeschool groups can be very small and it would depend entirely on how hemmed in the VS/Charter mom was to her requirements as to whether the hs group could actually be supportive.
Yes but the mom who both formula feeds and breastfeeds is welcome to post in the breastfeeding forum as long as she understands the position of the board.

I do not see why a support gruop should exclude someone because they *might* "wrongly influence" others. If you sign something that says you understand the postition of the group, you should be welcome unless you break that agreement.

Quote:
Yes, there are several issues being addressed here and it's making me dizzy. I don't think homeschoolers are at all threatened by Vs or charter or 'other' schoolers UNLESS they claim to be 'homeschoolers' because then it blurrs the legal and political boundaries.
I agree on a political level, but on a personal practical level I am as much of a homeshooler as many others here. I even have less reqiremnts than some states do despite being in a charter. If I knew of a better term to use, I would use it. But I still dont see why I should be excluded from a group because the govt pays for my curriculam. I have more in common with a homeschooler than a brick and mortar school. I even unschool.

Since many different issues are being discussed, lets start some spin offs
What to title a VS/Charter http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...topic=159901.0
I cluding others in co-ops http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...topic=159902.0
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Old 02-19-2008, 01:46 PM   #133
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Default Re: Spin off: Home school vs. public school at home

There's also a thread for those who choose to vs/vcs here
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Old 02-19-2008, 02:44 PM   #134
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Default Re: Spin off: Home school vs. public school at home

I am requesting that this thread be locked. The conversation is branching out and I think we should go to those new threads
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Old 02-19-2008, 02:47 PM   #135
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Default Re: Spin off: Home school vs. public school at home

Locked at the request of the OP.
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