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Old 05-15-2012, 10:13 AM   #16
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

This is a great thread. Eye opening, even. But what about the 3 year old that still says "NO!" to the direct command? That's where the 5 steps comes in, no?

The 5 steps in this house just end up looking like me (struggling to maintain my composure) physically dragging said 3 year old (who is doing the limp noodle thing, while whining "no....no....no....") around, cleaning up toys or whatever. Me holding her hand closed over the toy, then prying her hand open to release it into the box.....
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:47 AM   #17
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom



If I said "Will you..." to a student or a child and they answered "No, I don't want to," I'd think it was rude. So I guess maybe I use "Will you please" as a command. But then again, I ask my husband, "Will you please..." a lot, and I'm not in the habit of issuing him commands. But then again, if I said something like, "Honey, will you please help me with these groceries?" and he said, "No, I don't want to," I'd think that was rude too. If he had a good reason for saying no, he'd give it, and then I'd be fine with it. But I'd be if he just said no without explaining. So I guess in our house "Will you please" is a gray area between an option and a command.

If something is truly optional I say, "Do me a favor? Could you..." Favors are optional. And I guess the conditional tense is also a way of signaling that it is optional, although I've never thought about it that way before.
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:47 AM   #18
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

Quote:
Originally Posted by sstarcake View Post
This is a great thread. Eye opening, even. But what about the 3 year old that still says "NO!" to the direct command? That's where the 5 steps comes in, no?

The 5 steps in this house just end up looking like me (struggling to maintain my composure) physically dragging said 3 year old (who is doing the limp noodle thing, while whining "no....no....no....") around, cleaning up toys or whatever. Me holding her hand closed over the toy, then prying her hand open to release it into the box.....
At 3, for picking up shoes, I would try to make it a game.

"Uh OH!! THE SHOES ESCAPED!!!! HURRY, RUN, CATCH THEM BEFORE THEY GET AWAY!!!"

For the toys, Songs, or even breaking it down into smaller groups...

OK so now bring me all the red cars. Where do you think their home should be? Should we line them up, or stack them?


Also, realizing the limitations of a 3 yr. old, often times I would consider it a win if I got them to help me clean up. Expecting a 3 yr. old to honestly just clean may be beyond them at that point. Mine weren't reliable about picking up their toys, well honestly, only the older 3 have gotten to that point. Simon still goes limp at the thought of picking up his room.
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Old 05-15-2012, 06:57 PM   #19
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

I have heard commands being phrased as, "Will you do me a favor and..." many times.
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Old 05-15-2012, 07:34 PM   #20
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

This is another one of those grown-up things that NEVER made sense to me.

My parents did it all the time. And it drove me NUTS, because I could never tell if they really meant "please" or if they were just "being polite". Tone of voice, body cues, none of it "read" clearly enough to me, or consistently enough, and every time I thought I'd figured it out, I'd read someone wrong and get confused again. And then when *I* would use "please" as a just being polite thing, and get angry when the person said no, I would get told off for being disrespectful or getting above myself. Same if I just said "Do this, thank you." Even if it was just to my brother. I had to say please, and I wasn't allowed to get mad if the person said no, no matter what it was ("will you please get your trucks out of the toilet and go away so I can pee????" true story), but when an adult said "please", I wasn't allowed to say no. Very confusing, and all it really succeeded in doing was making me mad and obstinate out of frustration.

If you have a child that readily picks up on and understands unspoken social signals like tone of voice, body language, facial expression, then you may have more success with the "politely worded command". But if your child has any sort of hang-up in that area (whether it's age related, sensory issue, autism, etc), then he or she may a) not be able to grasp the "authority asks politely but it still means do it now" concept, or b) see right through the whole double standard of it and refuse to cooperate until the adults start to behave in accordance with their own rules! That's basically what happened in my head... I couldn't figure out the complexities of the game, so I just decided to stop playing until someone simplified the rules.

I've noticed this problem in the way I communicate too. I was so heavily conditioned to "ask politely" that I screw myself up in talking with my husband. Because he wasn't raised that way, when I say "Please think about what you want for dinner", he hears "Please think about what you want for dinner, and deciding that you don't want any is fine too." Problem is, what I really mean by that is "Decide what meat you want for dinner, go downstairs, get it out of the freezer, and put it in a bowl to thaw so that come 4pm I can cook it for you." And then 4pm rolls around, nothing's thawed, and nobody's acting like they have any intention of cooking, and I get mad because hello, the nursing mama needs to eat, people! So I'm trying to break the habit and say what I actually mean. Hopefully this will help when JJ starts getting verbal and needs me to be clear in my communication!
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Old 05-15-2012, 07:39 PM   #21
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasmanian Saint View Post
Then how does an authority say something when it *is* optional? Surely it happens sometimes...?
I honestly don't remember there being any options.. If there were, we were given two choices. Would you like Pizza, or Spagetti for dinner?

I think I kind of do both... Or maybe I am doing the same thing...

I usually say, Son, put your shoes away please. I guess I don't really need the "please".. But it still sounds like a command to me.

But if I said Son, will you put away your shoes please? I would consider than a choice..

What say you all?
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Old 05-15-2012, 07:48 PM   #22
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenderLovingWillow View Post
I honestly don't remember there being any options.. If there were, we were given two choices. Would you like Pizza, or Spagetti for dinner?

I think I kind of do both... Or maybe I am doing the same thing...

I usually say, Son, put your shoes away please. I guess I don't really need the "please".. But it still sounds like a command to me.

But if I said Son, will you put away your shoes please? I would consider than a choice..

What say you all?
Personally, I wouldn't be able to discern. That is probably why I avoid using "please" unless it is optional. I have trouble with picking up on subtle clues sometimes, so I try to make sure I follow what I would like others to do for me. I try to teach my 15 yr. old, and he does really well, these are our guidelines for avoiding confusion....

Make your expectations clear (don't ask when you mean to tell, make sure they know what you want, make sure you say it clearly in a language and tone they understand)

Respect their abilities (don't ask Simon to take out the 20 pd. trash)

Answer even the simplest question (yes, sometimes questions are used to stall for time, but sometimes they are honest)

For me, I prefer if people take these same principles with me, so I try to use them with my children. I don't just say, "pick up the toys", I say, "pick up the toys and put them in your toybox". Expectations are made clear. If I say, "please pick up the toys and put them in the toy box?" I feel that is unclear, it sounds like I don't care one way or the other whether he does or not.
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Old 05-15-2012, 07:57 PM   #23
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

I might have to work on that. My parents always demanded in question form, so I have tried really hard to leave the question tone out, and use a statement form.

I am going to listen to myself for the next few days and see how I really talk.
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:25 PM   #24
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

You might also try, "The toys need to be picked up and put away now," and see if it works.

Or maybe, "I would like the toys picked up and put away now."

"Let's see how fast you can put all the toys away!" could also work.

It probably depends on the child and his or her mood at the time.
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:32 PM   #25
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I say: i need you to pick up toys now. Or, it's time to pick up toys.


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Old 05-16-2012, 12:40 AM   #26
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

This thread is so enlightening. I have always been a people pleasing, manners-minded sort of person. I always say, "please" and "thank you" and have, as a matter of courtesy, began or ended my commands with "please". No wonder DS is always acting as if I've just casually asked him whether or not he wants to do it! After reading this thread, I decided to test this out.

Since things have been hectic around here this past week, between my nephew's first birthday party and my DS and nephew getting colds, I relaxed my "no bedroom eating rule" a little bit and allowed DS to set up a TV tray in his bedroom and eat his veggie crumble tacos tonight. A little later he wanted a cereal snack in my bedroom, so I asked him to bring the tray on in, but make sure her cleaned the tray off first. Actually, I said, "please make sure there aren't any veggie crumbles on your tray". He turned the whole thing upside down and dumped the crumbles onto his floor and happily marched with the clean tray into my room.

I wanted him to clean up the mess for himself while I got the cereal ready. Instead of approaching it as optional, I handed him the cordless sweeper and politely, yet firmly, said, "you need to take the sweeper and suck up the crumbles you dropped". He whined and asked, "can't you do it?" and I replied, "no, I will be busy getting your cereal ready". He cheerfully took the sweeper into his room, tidied up the mess and came back all happy to a bowl of cereal. I was amazed. We did a little "high five" dance and enjoyed our cereal.
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Old 05-16-2012, 02:37 AM   #27
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

Quote:
I honestly don't remember there being any options.. If there were, we were given two choices. Would you like Pizza, or Spagetti for dinner?
Well, what I mean is, when my kids are a bit older (ie, more capable) I can foresee days when I will feel like, 'hey, they've done their chores and that's fine, but I would really feel blessed if they'd help me out by doing the vacuuming' and I'd feel more blessed if they *chose* to do it rather than thinking everything I asked them to do was a command, yk? So if I were to teach them that 'no' is never an option then there would be no way for me to make a request of that nature. So I'm not doing that
Plus I think expecting kids to always jump as soon as you give an instruction is an invasion of personal boundaries, treating them as a robot instead of an individual. So having a 'command form', a 'immediate command form' and a 'request form' of communication allows the child autonomy while giving the parent the ability to pull rank when necessary.

In any case, with the example in the OP, the problem was not disobedience, it was miscommunication/ misunderstanding. Therefore the solution is not to threaten but to clarify. And then it's up to the parents, not grandma, to decide if they want to make the rule that all requests from authorities be treated as commands - and to teach this, not just expect the child to somehow *know*.
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Old 05-16-2012, 02:56 AM   #28
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

I am on maternity leave so I'm still getting work emails. I looked up the latest staff email from my boss. There were five commands on it, and four of them were written with "please," including the one that was important enough to her that she underlined it. So I think teaching children that "please" does not equal optional is a useful skill even if you don't personally prefer that mode of communication.

None of them were phrased, "Will you please..." They were commands, not questions. But I can imagine being in a meeting and sitting next to a pile of handouts, and her saying something like, "Would you please take those and pass them around?" And I would not be doing myself any favors if I said no.
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Old 05-16-2012, 03:24 AM   #29
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

I'm finding this thread depressing b/c I ask, tell, whatever and still get 'Noooooo!'


Quote:
Originally Posted by sstarcake View Post
This is a great thread. Eye opening, even. But what about the 3 year old that still says "NO!" to the direct command? That's where the 5 steps comes in, no?

The 5 steps in this house just end up looking like me (struggling to maintain my composure) physically dragging said 3 year old (who is doing the limp noodle thing, while whining "no....no....no....") around, cleaning up toys or whatever. Me holding her hand closed over the toy, then prying her hand open to release it into the box.....
This sounds more like us -except dd1 is 5.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermana Linda View Post
You might also try, "The toys need to be picked up and put away now," and see if it works.

Or maybe, "I would like the toys picked up and put away now."

"Let's see how fast you can put all the toys away!" could also work.

It probably depends on the child and his or her mood at the time.
I don't think my dc have a tidying up mood
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Old 05-16-2012, 05:22 AM   #30
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

Do you have a regular tidying-up time? That's what worked best for us for a long time. We've had it as part of our bedtime routine, or pre-dinner, but that's not necessarily ideal (tired or hungry...)... anyway I find that I get less resistance after a few days of doing the same thing at the same time, it just becomes 'what we do'. Of course, we have our good and bad days, too
Now I'm trying to work towards putting things away as soon as we've finished with them but I find that a lot harder than having a designated time of the day, especially when I go 'flip, we need to be out the door right now, we're late, where are your shoes?' and we don't really have time to pack up so we just have to leave it for later
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  • (1)header
  • (1)headinclude
  • (1)navbar
  • (3)navbar_link
  • (60)option
  • (1)pagenav
  • (1)pagenav_curpage
  • (5)pagenav_pagelink
  • (15)post_groan_box
  • (1)post_groan_javascript
  • (1)post_groan_navbar_search
  • (15)post_thanks_box
  • (36)post_thanks_box_bit
  • (1)post_thanks_javascript
  • (1)post_thanks_navbar_search
  • (15)post_thanks_postbit_legacy
  • (15)postbit_legacy
  • (14)postbit_onlinestatus
  • (142)postbit_reputation
  • (15)postbit_wrapper
  • (4)showthread_bookmarksite
  • (1)smqre_editor_button
  • (1)spacer_close
  • (1)spacer_open
  • (1)tagbit_wrapper 

Phrase Groups Available:
  • global
  • inlinemod
  • postbit
  • posting
  • reputationlevel
  • showthread
Included Files:
  • ./showthread.php
  • ./global.php
  • ./includes/init.php
  • ./includes/class_core.php
  • ./includes/config.php
  • ./includes/functions.php
  • ./includes/class_hook.php
  • ./includes/functions_notice.php
  • ./mobiquo/smartbanner.php
  • ./mobiquo/include/classTTConnection.php
  • ./mobiquo/smartbanner/head.inc.php
  • ./includes/functions_bigthree.php
  • ./includes/class_postbit.php
  • ./includes/class_bbcode.php
  • ./includes/functions_reputation.php
  • ./includes/adminfunctions_template.php
  • ./includes/functions_misc.php
  • ./includes/functions_post_thanks.php
  • ./includes/functions_post_groan.php 

Hooks Called:
  • init_startup
  • cache_permissions
  • fetch_postinfo_query
  • fetch_postinfo
  • fetch_threadinfo_query
  • fetch_threadinfo
  • fetch_foruminfo
  • style_fetch
  • cache_templates
  • global_start
  • parse_templates
  • fetch_musername
  • notices_check_start
  • global_setup_complete
  • showthread_start
  • template_groups
  • template_safe_functions
  • template_compile
  • showthread_getinfo
  • forumjump
  • showthread_post_start
  • showthread_query_postids
  • showthread_query
  • bbcode_fetch_tags
  • bbcode_create
  • showthread_postbit_create
  • postbit_factory
  • postbit_display_start
  • post_thanks_function_post_thanks_off_start
  • post_thanks_function_post_thanks_off_end
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_start
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_end
  • post_thanks_function_thanked_already_start
  • post_thanks_function_thanked_already_end
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_bit_start
  • post_thanks_function_show_thanks_date_start
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_bit_end
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_post_thanks_template_start
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_post_thanks_template_end
  • post_groan_function_post_groan_off_start
  • post_groan_function_post_groan_off_end
  • post_groan_function_fetch_groans_start
  • post_groan_function_fetch_groans_end
  • post_groan_function_groaned_already_start
  • post_groan_function_groaned_already_end
  • reputation_image
  • bbcode_parse_start
  • postbit_imicons
  • bbcode_parse_complete_precache
  • bbcode_parse_complete
  • postbit_display_complete
  • error_fetch
  • pagenav_page
  • pagenav_complete
  • tag_fetchbit_complete
  • forumrules
  • showthread_bookmarkbit
  • navbits
  • navbits_complete
  • showthread_complete