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Old 07-10-2016, 01:40 PM   #1
wildswede
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Default Giving Grace v. Giving Up

DS (6) is *very* extrinsically motivated, while I struggle with this internally, there is way more to be concerned with so I'm not looking for ways to develop intrinsic motivation. We are doing play therapy together (C-P-R model) with a therapist and I realized how I fail to follow through when he is given a choice, under the guise of "giving grace". How do you balance grace with just plain old giving up? He is all about begging for another chance... and another chance... and another chance. What are your policies on "chances"? He is very motivated by computer games, a few Wii games, videos, and Netflix so that's my go-to; "If you choose to stand up and walk with me, then you are choosing to watch a video at home. If you are choosing to keep grabbing at toys, then you are choosing not to watch a video at home." I repeat this twice and then give him a countdown... which he often just misses and then begs for another chance. I'm just not quite sure if this is making sense in a way that will effect him or not? Right now he's actually hollering at me because he was given a warning twice, then a countdown and continued to grab toys off shelves at the grocery store, so he lost electronics today... he's mad because "it was about toys, not about shows!" He is right, it was about toys, he had actually been told he could get some caps once we had finished the grocery shopping part and the store wound up being out of caps. Therefore, he decided he should get whatever he wanted.
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Old 07-10-2016, 03:13 PM   #2
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Default Re: Giving Grace v. Giving Up

I try not to give extra chances. If mine has missed her opportunity to make the choice she wants, it is usually because she is tired, hungry, or overstimulated. So continuing the topic just escalates the problems.

Sometimes though, I tell her "This is actually not very important to me, you can go ahead with..." or "Hey babe, it's ok to make mistakes and to change your mind. Let's try this again." I model my own trying again as well.

To me, it's about "is this me avoiding conflict and not wanting to deal, or is this a case where my kid needs another shot?"
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Old 07-10-2016, 03:17 PM   #3
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Default Re: Giving Grace v. Giving Up

Removing media isn't a natural consequence for the most part. it might help to brainstorm natural consequences to frequent issues you have. Lots of moms here can help with that. Plus there's old threads you can search. He was right that it was about toys, not shows. Since he didn't have the self control to not touch toys it would have been better to remove that temptation, by maybe putting him in a shopping cart or leaving the isle. And since he couldn't get caps you could have said he could get something of equal cost and then listed a few things like gum or a matchbox car.

As to your question, unfortunately, it is not following through. Always state a consequence you are comfortable with following through. I totally understand that's not easy though.

Also, There are better alternatives to counting down. Most children need a transition warning ("we're leaving the park in five minutes...") but counting down is like saying "I didn't mean it the first time I said it." But expecting obedience on the first request can be very wearing on a relationship so only use it as a last resort in your tool box. Start with playful parenting and offering to help them obey, like, I do this silly thing where I actually hold their hands in mine and pick up toys with their hands when they aren't cleaning up. Also, setting them up for success, like in the example, moving him away from the shelves.
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Old 07-10-2016, 03:31 PM   #4
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Default Re: Giving Grace v. Giving Up

I feel like maybe losing all electronics might be too much and just exacerbate instead of teach impulse control. He actually finally approached me to talk about what happened and we decided that a better way for him to keep track of what I say and what the expectations are would be to use an app on my phone that will show him a picture of what is waiting for him and that will be what he can either keep or lose depending on the choices he makes. He's very visual, when upset he tends to shut down and truly not hear or process what is being said.

---------- Post added at 03:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by deena View Post
Removing media isn't a natural consequence for the most part. it might help to brainstorm natural consequences to frequent issues you have. Lots of moms here can help with that. Plus there's old threads you can search.

As to your question, unfortunately, it is not following through. Always state a consequence you are comfortable with following through. I totally understand that's not easy though.
You are right, it's not a natural consequence, there are just so few natural consequences that have an effect. I mean, what is the natural consequence to losing it when he realized that there were no caps? He doesn't get caps, that's pretty much a given, I cannot make them appear out of thin air. I can't really say that he can't come grocery shopping with me, there's no where else for him to go and nowhere delivers in our town... besides the fact that he hates the grocery store.
I will admit that threatening no electronics is a manipulative play on my part to get the heck out of wherever we are... if I'd not been already taking up space in a check out line, I would have just waited the storm out with him.
I'm having such a hard time with discipline that doesn't set off a cascade of more behaviors: it will get to the point where I have to shut myself in my room because he's throwing things at me or pull the car over because he's out of his seat belt and throwing things. There's a lot more going on than discipline, I'm just trying to figure out what is going to be the most supportive for him while he learns skills.
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Old 07-10-2016, 03:33 PM   #5
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Default Re: Giving Grace v. Giving Up

Sorry, I was editing/adding to my post when you responded. I might have addressed your question in there. If not I'd be glad to expound.

You added that you were in the checkout lane, so you couldn't have left the isle. Maybe hold him or hold his hands?

I went through a period (15 years ago!) when my four year old would get violent so I totally get that. Sometimes I would have to bear hug him to keep him from hurting me or damaging property. When you've got a kid going through that it's even more important to avoid conflict by using other discipline techniques before making a demand.
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Old 07-10-2016, 03:57 PM   #6
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Default Re: Giving Grace v. Giving Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by deena View Post
Sorry, I was editing/adding to my post when you responded. I might have addressed your question in there. If not I'd be glad to expound.

You added that you were in the checkout lane, so you couldn't have left the isle. Maybe hold him or hold his hands?

I went through a period (15 years ago!) when my four year old would get violent so I totally get that. Sometimes I would have to bear hug him to keep him from hurting me or damaging property. When you've got a kid going through that it's even more important to avoid conflict by using other discipline techniques before making a demand.
Holding is tough, he was dragged by his arm down a hallway at school this past year (he no longer attends that school) and was traumatized by that (I'm talking nightmares, and was so stressed he wound up having diarrhea and couldn't get to the toilet in time) so holding when he's not initiating physical contact is my last ditch effort, he's got to be actually in imminent danger or posing imminent danger. He's learned to yell, "I don't feel safe with you! You are hurting me!" if I so much as look like I'm going to try to touch him... which is lots of fun in public. He's also gets incredibly strong, like psychotic break strong and is as big as a lot of eight year olds now (over 4 ft and 60 lbs). Maybe I should begin each trip out with an overview of expectations and make sure he always has a job to do?
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Old 07-10-2016, 08:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: Giving Grace v. Giving Up

I think that last part is golden! Just in my limited experience, I have a 6 year old and my 4 year is kind of an explosive personality, they do SO MUCH BETTER when they know what's coming and what I expect of them. Like before we go into the store: I tell them what we are there for, how long it should take, things we are NOT there for (if applicable), the buggy situation (you can push your own/we will not get the car/we will only use 1/you have to walk or ride), and occasionally I give them something they are in charge of (like if we get a treat type thing I let them find it and carry it). Oh plus we go over rules as we walk in (stay with me, finger touch only, don't run off). It doesn't take long at all but it lets them know what's coming and I regret it if I forget to go over everything.
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Old 07-11-2016, 06:08 AM   #8
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Default Re: Giving Grace v. Giving Up

Just throwing out an idea from our therapist....would *earning* video time be more effective than losing it? It's the same outcome, but focuses more on desired behavior than misbehavior. Might also be easier for you to follow thru on?

ETA: I know there are so many pros/cons to token systems. I wrestle with this a lot, but this kind of approach has helped us get thru some tough developmental phases along the way--breaking the negative cycle, I guess you could say. I don't love everything about it, but I do feel good about communicating that privileges & responsibility are connected.

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Old 07-11-2016, 01:12 PM   #9
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Default Re: Giving Grace v. Giving Up

Thank you for suggestions, yes, I realized that I am going about using his preferences the wrong way. Instead of taking away the privilege, he will get to earn keeping the privilege for the next section of time (whole days are too much for him, he just cannot think that far and gets completely overwhelmed). It just gets so hard to think straight in the moment, you know!
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Old 07-11-2016, 06:48 PM   #10
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Default Re: Giving Grace v. Giving Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildswede View Post
Thank you for suggestions, yes, I realized that I am going about using his preferences the wrong way. Instead of taking away the privilege, he will get to earn keeping the privilege for the next section of time (whole days are too much for him, he just cannot think that far and gets completely overwhelmed). It just gets so hard to think straight in the moment, you know!
I totally get it too many times at the end of the day I'm wondering where my brain went and why I couldn't see the obvious when I really needed it. We're learning right along with them!
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Old 07-11-2016, 07:13 PM   #11
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Default Re: Giving Grace v. Giving Up

I would also break the time into chunks he can handle (ie one hour earns 5 minutes or whatever) but once he has earned it it can't be lost, so even if he has a bad day he is learning it is possible to succeed....and that success can happen in levels rather than all or nothing. From several of your threads your son sounds a lot like my girls..it was definitely a huge challenge, lol, but I also have all the best stories! As your son gets older you will have an amazing relationship, they remember all this effort and appreciate it! {{Hugs}}

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Old 07-22-2016, 05:04 AM   #12
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Default Re: Giving Grace v. Giving Up

I use electronics in certain situations too. Is it ideal, no but it's reality especially when you have a child that's particularly difficult. My approach is more like this - if you aren't doing the things expect of you, you might be too distracted by screens and we need to put them away for awhile until we get back to better behavior. Usually it's for at least a full day at this point though. Admittedly it's usually not for store tantrums it's for kids who are trashing the house and not doing school work and being rude to me when reminded so a bit different scenario but yes, I get it.

The store, so so hard. My child with similar issues is 10 and still sometimes has a hard time at the store. Nothing like when she was that age though. Does he go to daycare after school? Can the store happen while he is still at daycare? If not my idea would be to take him more regularly for shorter trips and involved him and yes, a video or whatever at the end. So really talk about not just behavior but what you hope to accomplish "we need milk, bread, potatoes, and bananas, and those are the only things we can touch" Timers can be good for some kids and increase anxiety in others so I would experiment in a less critical situation if you don't already know how your DS will react.

Re grace vs giving up I do give my kids a chance to try again on things if I possibly can. I don't just say "oh I give up fine you can have the reward anyway" but I do say "do you want a chance to make this right or try again?"


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Old 07-22-2016, 11:22 PM   #13
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Default Re: Giving Grace v. Giving Up

You may find this website helpful. http://www.livesinthebalance.org
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:48 AM   #14
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Default Re: Giving Grace v. Giving Up

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If you are choosing to keep grabbing at toys, then you are choosing not to watch a video at home." I repeat this twice and then give him a countdown... which he often just misses and then begs for another chance. I
These are completely unrelated.

To answer your question, grace means that you fill in the gap between his abilities and the need for his behavior. So if I was teaching a class and he came in I would give no chances -- one chance and then I would help until he indicated he wanted to cooperate without my help. No threats or consequences "if you do" or "so you'll do" because that becomes manipulative.

I would tighten the reigns on the boundaries and be very strict but also incredibly kind. Very Mary Poppins -- you can have a spoonful of sugar but the medicine will go down.
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Old 07-23-2016, 07:43 AM   #15
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Default Re: Giving Grace v. Giving Up

More chances does not fly around here- my kids don't even ask because they know there are none. I will give the expectation. If they do not follow it there is a consequence. As much as possible, the consequences are relevant. A child who is throwing food is obviously done eating. I will say "no throwing food" and if they do it again their plate is taken away. If a child were to ask for another chance I would say "You'll get another chance at lunch. For now you are done eating." Letting them know another chance is coming eventually is good- makes it feel less final. But the other chance has to be for another time- not for this time. But I do not withdraw affection, I am not mad at them, it is matter-of-fact and then they are welcome to go play or do whatever they would do at any other time.

It sounds to me like you need to be firmer with him. If he knows there is a possibility of another chance then he has no motivation to behave. Consequences seem random (sometimes there is another chance and sometimes there isn't) instead of that he can choose his own circumstances.

And I think you need to find more relevant consequences. For example if I had a six-year-old who was grabbing at toys in a store, that child would be buckled into the cart. One statement of the expectation, and if that was violated they would be buckled in. No counting, no more chances, no making them wonder if I meant it or not. "You'll get another chance next time we go shopping. For now you have shown me that you're having trouble keeping your hands off the toys, so I am helping you" If it's a store that doesn't have carts, I would bring a stroller in the car with me and we would get it if we needed it. But at the same time, you should try not to be angry. He shows you how much freedom he can handle and you give him that much freedom.

We've had a lot of success with "one finger touch" around here when it comes to grabbing things. I will walk into a store and say "this is a one-finger touch store" (a store with fragile things, for instance) and it gives kids the opportunity to touch without grabbing or hurting things. If they forget I will say "remember your one-finger touches". And they have to be gentle. If they are too aggressive with their one finger I will say "remember it's one finger touch, not one finger bang." But again, not endless chances. If they can't remember, then they go in the stroller.

It seems to me that you just need more tools in your toolbox. Taking away screen time for every infraction just isn't all that effective, especially because it's a later consequence instead of a now consequence and it's not related to the behavior. And extra chances really work against you. They need to realize they need to pay attention the first time you say something and not feel free to ignore you the first five times.
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  • bbcode_parse_start
  • bbcode_parse_complete_precache
  • bbcode_parse_complete
  • postbit_display_complete
  • error_fetch
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_bit_start
  • post_thanks_function_show_thanks_date_start
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_bit_end
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_post_thanks_template_start
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_post_thanks_template_end
  • pagenav_page
  • pagenav_complete
  • tag_fetchbit_complete
  • forumrules
  • showthread_bookmarkbit
  • navbits
  • navbits_complete
  • showthread_complete