Cognitively Ready to Obey?

[Pearl In Oyster]

There was a speaker at my MOPS group this week on "biblical discipline" (aka spanking). At the end, someone asked at what age to start spanking. The speaker said to give a toddler, between the ages of 18 months and 2.5 years, this test:

Parent: "Do you want a popsicle?"
Toddler: "Yes!"
Parent: "OK, go stand by the freezer and wait for me to come get you a popsicle."

According to the speaker, if the toddler goes to wait by the freezer, it means you should expect first time obedience any time you get down on their level to tell them what you want or don't want them to do as long as you follow your instructions with the magic words "I need you to obey me."

That doesn't sound right or fair to me, but I can't quite articulate why. Someone help?

[cindergretta]

Ugh. The reason it makes me ill is because an 18 month old, 2 year old, or a 3 year old, will stand and wait (impatiently for a *brief* time!!) for something that they want. They are motivated by their desire for the popsicle. However, putting their shoes on because you are ready to leave has no motivation to them. They don't care that you have an appointment and there is "nothing in it" (so to speak) for them. Oy! This kind of thing makes me want to have an honest hissy - fit. (And as adults, do we practice first time obedience, all the time???? To God? To our boss? To our spouse? I don't think so!)

(Fwiw, I don't believe in first time obedience for anyone anyway. Long post that I can't face right now as I am exhausted. )

[BarefootBetsy]

Even when a child has the cognitive ability to understand a clear instruction, they still (usually) lack the self-control and impulse control to actually follow a clear instruction that doesn't have a clear "pay off" for them and that they are not intrinsically motivated to follow. It's a fact of brain chemistry and really cannot be considered "willful" disobedience, IMO

[hey mommy]

Yeah, what she said.


That sounds like they're setting a child up for failure. It's not fair to the child.

[WildFlower]

like barefootbetsy said...


for a child that age there isn't any motivation to obey except, when you finally start spanking, then there is the motivation of fear. So just because they will wait for something they "want" they should obey every and all command and be able to do so? That's just ridiculous.

[Aerynne]

Well my 19mo doesn't know what a popsicle is but she is really hit or miss on understanding instructions. Sometimes she gets it really well- sometimes when I think she will, she really doesn't. She's just getting old enough for me to bother giving her instructions she might obey if she feels like it. If not, I just gomb and help her. I don't even get mad about it (like I do with my 4yo ). I can't imagine expecting a child that young to obey or punishing them for not obeying. At this age, her "consequences" are only to make sure she doesn't hurt herself, others, or things. So if she won't hold my hand in the parking lot I pick her up. But I don't require her to pick up her toys (though I do encourage her to- if she doesn't feel like it- no biggie). If she drops something on the floor I ask her to pick it up. If she doesn't, I do it and say "xyz doesn't go on the floor" I just can't fathom spanking, or even punishing, an 18mo!!

[marbles]

That's stupid. Sometimes Lucca wants to go outside so I ask her to bring me her shoes. Sometimes she gets them and helps me put them on her. Sometimes she even brings me my shoes. If she only brings me one is that "willful disobedience"? How about when she brings them but then runs to the door before I can put them on? That's not disobedience, it's immaturity. It's being a child and really really wanting something. In the Popsicle scenario, how long does the child have to wait in order to prove obedience? What if one day the child really wants one so waits but the next time is already full and says yes just because yes is the obvious answer for a treat but doesn't really want one and so decides that waiting isn't worth it? That's quite a bit of thought and some good decision-making. Doing what you're told in order to get what you want requires very little self control. Almost anyone can do that. I'm excellent at that. Doing what you're told because it's the right thing to do is much harder.

[Rabbit]

A child of that level of understanding is ready to understand the behavioral training that will follow in that home. Cue words "I need you to obey me" invoke the required action, or punishment. Punishment will train the child to respond to the cue words, if the child is vulnerable to that form of control.

[marbles]

And I know this is a younger age, but I think it's a good example of the problem with imposing arbitrary physical punishment. Dr Sears references on his site a study that showed that 14 month olds whose hands were slapped showed less initiation than their redirected peers in exploring the world around them several months later. The study showed that not only did the physical punishments stop the undesired behavior, but they stopped similar good behavior. I do think that can be extrapolated to an 18-24 month old. Just because they can understand that specific request doesn't mean that they will be able to apply an unrelated pain to a broader set of parameters. It will either shut them down, as shown in the aforementioned study, or they will not be able to associate one command with a new situation.

[WalkByFaith]

Originally Posted by Aerynne

Well my 19mo doesn't know what a popsicle is but she is really hit or miss on understanding instructions. Sometimes she gets it really well- sometimes when I think she will, she really doesn't. She's just getting old enough for me to bother giving her instructions she might obey if she feels like it.

I still feel this way with my 2 year old. There are times when he seems to "get it" once and there are other times I can see that he's processing and trying to understand what I'm saying.

[bolt.]

Even when a child has the cognitive ability to understand a clear instruction, they still (usually) lack the self-control and impulse control to actually follow a clear instruction that doesn't have a clear "pay off" for them and that they are not intrinsically motivated to follow.

Yes, it means exactly what the 'speaker' says it means -- that the child is cognitively able to understand a clear instruction, and that s/he has the ability to choose to do what will lead towards something s/he desires.

Then, any program of consistent dis-incentives will be successful in controlling the child. At least they are smart enough to realize that dis-incentive training won't be successful, before that point.

Child understands command.
Child grasps that non-pain results from following command.
Child grasps that pain results from not following command.
Child follows command.

Easy-peasy.

Non-pain is a clear pay-off. It's just not as nice as non-pain plus a Popsicle.

[sherry]

I agree with everything said above, wholeheartedly. there is a big part that gets left out of the equation, though, when trying to use any conditioning techniques on kids (any age). The same process is also happening to the parent. We are still learning and adapting as adults too. Only in this case, its not the most helpful learning. i.e. the parent expects a response that just isn't going to happen consistently. If that parent is following a really punitive mindset/action set, the actions that follow will "train up" the parents future responses as much as the child's. It can leave parents without the skills or flexibility to deal with real life kids, the ones that don't obey every time.

[Pearl In Oyster]

That is an insightful point, Sherry. Beyond the adversarial mindset or "goggles" one must put on to be constantly looking for instances of disobedience, defiance and disrespect that warrant a spanking, the actual process of conditioning a child with physical punishment provides a parent with intermittent rewards (after all, every kid will obey *sometimes* and gradually grow out of age appropriate behaviors), which are the most powerful kind of reinforcement there is!

The short-term results of spanking can mislead parents into continuing a practice that actually can damage relationships and spirits over the long term.

[Hermana Linda]

Originally Posted by sherry

I agree with everything said above, wholeheartedly. there is a big part that gets left out of the equation, though, when trying to use any conditioning techniques on kids (any age). The same process is also happening to the parent. We are still learning and adapting as adults too. Only in this case, its not the most helpful learning. i.e. the parent expects a response that just isn't going to happen consistently. If that parent is following a really punitive mindset/action set, the actions that follow will "train up" the parents future responses as much as the child's. It can leave parents without the skills or flexibility to deal with real life kids, the ones that don't obey every time.

This is very true and explains the death of at least 2 adopted children.

[Zooey]

Originally Posted by Hermana Linda

This is very true and explains the death of at least 2 adopted children.

This.