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Old 05-17-2012, 04:08 PM   #61
Happygrl
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_kangaroo View Post
But isn't that where it's our job as parents to explain that "please" doesn't mean "optional"?
At 2, he would never have gotten that. Even at 4. Petie said it well but I'm quite confident he won't grow up to tell a police officer no thanks just as I'm confident he'll learn to stand in a line.
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:52 PM   #62
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

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Originally Posted by Petie View Post
They are just children, yet they understand this concept, even though, at our house we don't use please unless it's optional.
I guess that's the key. I don't think that in the general culture, "please" means something is an optional request. But in some families, it is, and that's ok if that's how they choose to use it in their family.

I think this is one thing that probably just depends on what is taught as the culture of the home. In our house, if we said "Please pick up your toys" and the child says, "No thanks," we would say something like, "I'm sorry, but that wasn't a request. You need to do it."

In a household where the parent responds to that by saying, "Oh, I'm sorry, I worded it wrongly" and proceeds to reword it differently so that it's not phrased as a "request" then that teaches the child that using the word please makes it a request and "please" means optional in that household.

If the parent responds to a child saying "no" to "please do this" in exactly the same way they would respond if the child says "no" to "do this" then I think the child will learn that "please do this" means the same thing as "do this".

I'm not saying one way is right or wrong, but I think it's probably a family culture thing and how we respond as parents will influence the way our children interpret the use of the word please.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:02 PM   #63
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

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We don't have a tidy up routine, but I (try to) have one thing tidied away before we start the next.
I'm not sure packing one thing away before getting the next out is necessarily appropriate for LEs. I know it works for some people, and if so, go ahead but for my kids, what I observed was that they would move back and forth between two or more activities. Often, between something new/difficult and something old/mastered. I think they do this to give their brains a break, or to build their own confidence... I don't think the concept of 'finished with' makes a lot of sense to them... that's why I preferred tidying at the end of the day, even though they are tired... And I definitely find playful parenting to be the best kind of help (you can use it at Step 4, you don't have to think of it straight away )
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:01 PM   #64
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

I guess I am just too much of a grammar stickler to understand this. Adding please to a command does not make it a request.
If a child does not understand something said with proper meaning, I do not start using an incorrect meaning to get them to understand, I teach them the proper meaning of a word.
If a child does not understand something polite, it is not an excuse to be rude so they understand, it is time to teach them the rules of manners.
This is not a matter of children not understanding subtlety, it is improper use of the word please to say that adding it to a command turns it into a request. I have very black and white thinkers in my house and they understood this.

I absolutely agree that there are "have to's" and "want to's" with children and that you should never phrase a "have to" as a request, but in American English, adding please to a command does not make it a request, allowing your children to think otherwise is setting them up for difficulty, because it isn't how the word is used. I see it as akin to a child still learning the language deciding that all animals are dogs, and instead of teaching them otherwise, you changing your own vocabulary to match the child's. It is doing them a disservice and underestimating the capacity of children to learn the proper meanings of language.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:25 PM   #65
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_kangaroo View Post
I'm not saying one way is right or wrong, but I think it's probably a family culture thing and how we respond as parents will influence the way our children interpret the use of the word please.
If its purely a family cultural thing and the parent responds the same way each time no matter the child, then how would you explain families where one child responds one way and another responds another way?

Again, I think this statement is too much of a blanket one. In some families that may be the case. But it simply isn't true for my family and, I'm sure, for others as well.

And who is saying that they'll never teach it? Or that they aren't working on it? I can promise you that I've worked on it for years. My 4yo still just doesn't respond the same way as my eldest without me reminding.
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:26 PM   #66
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

[/COLOR]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happygrl View Post
If its purely a family cultural thing and the parent responds the same way each time no matter the child, then how would you explain families where one child responds one way and another responds another way?

Again, I think this statement is too much of a blanket one. In some families that may be the case. But it simply isn't true for my family and, I'm sure, for others as well.
I have one child who is far more likely to say no to a request than another child, no matter how it's worded. Certainly it's a personality thing.

But, like Mommy Piadosa says, I think it's unreasonable for me to have to be rude in order to get my child to comply with a request. Every child is probably going to test and challenge requests at some point.

I have one child who will argue and question unless I yell or speak in a very stern tone. But to me it does not feel right to then always yell every time I want her to do something. I prefer to teach her to comply without my having to yell at her or be harsh to get results.

Likewise, I expect my children to respond to a polite request without my having to be rude to get them to do what I ask.

Some people don't feel that saying please is polite or that not saying please is rude. In the culture I grew up in, saying please is being polite, and giving an order with no softener such as "please" or "would you" is in most cases considered rude.

For me, I feel it's important to teach my kids to comply with a polite request given in a normal tone. To someone else that may not be as important, or their idea of polite may be different.
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:30 PM   #67
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

Quote:
I don't ask, but I do say please. "feet on the floor, please" am I making it sound optional?
Not necessarily. The argument has been made that tone of voice can communicate that the addition of "please" does not indicate that an instruction is optional, that it's just being polite. (And btw, I agree.) But could the reverse not also be true? Could tone of voice and other similar cues not be used to communicate that an instruction is meant kindly, while removing any potential misunderstanding?

What I'm seeing here is a range of ways to give an instruction, all of which indicate a wish that it get done, but with differing levels of immediacy/optional... ness. (Yeah, that sounded better in my head... .)

At one end you've got full command, at the other, full request, and all variations in between. Bear with me, I'm sorta thinking out loud here...

So... say I want the kids to ... stop jumping on the couch.

"Please stop jumping on the couch." Sounds like a request to me.
"Stop jumping on the couch, please." Sounds like an instruction, worded politely.
"Feet on the floor, please." - Still better, because gives a mental picture of what I want instead of what I don't want. So I think your phrasing there is fine.

But in between those three there's a whole range of possible phrasings that communicate different things to different people.

"Would you please put your feet on the floor?" is a request. Same with "Could you, can you, will you", etc.

Drop the "please" entirely, and "Feet on the floor" can still be made polite with tone and expression, or it can be as stern as is needed in the moment.

Language is flexible. Adding please to a command does not necessarily create a request, but neither does leaving it off necessarily create rudeness. Yes, in our culture, the common usage means that please can just be the polite thing to say...

And honestly that bugs the daylights out of me. "Please?" is a question. An entreaty. It communicates a need, but in my ear it also sounds like the possibility of "no" is already in there, and tacking it onto a command... sounds like an afterthought. An irritating one. Like the person heard themselves and thought "oh that sounded rude, I'd better add a please". I don't want to hear please if I'm not allowed to say "no". I really try not to say please if I'm not going to accept "no", because it feels like a lie, like I'm guilting the person or something. Maybe that's the hurt kid in me still, but that's how I feel about it.

While learning the skill of understanding when it really means please and when it's just being nice is important, I think it is equally important that children learn the flip side of that coin... when they can say no, when they can't, and why, and when they are very young, it seems like the simplest way to teach that would be to use words that mean exactly what you want, and get into the complexities of adult communication when they're a little older and can handle things that are a little more abstract.

Kind of like forcing apologies from kids that don't really feel sorry... I feel like teaching kids to parrot "please" and "thank you" when they don't mean to request or don't feel thankful ... is another way of teaching them to lie. (Similar to the way people expect you to respond with something good or at least neutral to the question "How are you?" Most of the time, people don't actually want to know. People who know me, though, they've learned not to ask if they don't actually care, because I will answer truthfully whether they want to know or not.) Mind, I'm thinking about YOUNG kids here. Certainly by school age they should be familiar with please, thank you, and so forth, and at least be learning the explanations for why we use those words the way we do.

I don't know if this is making sense to anyone but me...

Grr, I'm all tangled up & frustrated now. And I have to get to bed. Punkin's been getting me up by 6 lately.
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:38 PM   #68
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

I do also have one child who is far more literal than my others. We do adjust to her to some extent, but more than that we do extra coaching with her. When she didn't understand things like irony, figurative speech and sarcasm, we didn't stop using them in our speech. We actually used them more, but made a point to help her notice and understand when we were using those twists of the English language and what was really meant by it.

---------- Post added at 02:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:32 AM ----------

MaryPoppinsIAint, I agree that tone can make all the difference, no matter what the wording.

I don't see "Please" as a plea, though. According to Merriam-Webster, it's synonymous with saying, "Would you have the kindness to do such-and-such" or "I want you to please me by doing such-and-such".

The word please is essentially saying that you want someone else to do something to please you; that they are doing it because you are asking them to.

It's essentially an acknowledgement that it's not necessarily what they want to do for their own sake or pleasure at the moment, but that you are asking them to do it for you. It's a polite acknowledgement that you are asking them to set aside their own goals and convenience for a moment to do something for you.
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:38 PM   #69
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

there are obviously alot of different ways to say the same thing. It maybe cultural or just personality how a person says something. But grammer rules don't change. "Can I"? Indicates asking if someone is able to. "may I" indicates asking for permission. This is something basic you teach children when they are older like 5+ or so? So in the reverse, "can you take your shoes off" would be asking if they are able to. "will you take your shoes off" Is asking if they are willing to. "Take your shoes off" is a command, not asking if they are willing or able but telling them to do it.
Please added the the first option sounds silly and generally isn't used. Used with "will" or "would" as well as a simple command such as "do it" is simply manners.

Just like saying thank you. Please is polite and manners. It doesn't turn something into a request just because it's used. The way the whole sentence is stated makes it into a question , NOT the usage of the word Please.

Children, of course, might view a request OR a command as optional depending on how they've been raised.


Sorry if I keep saying the same thing but it really bugs me when people use grammer incorrectly.
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:55 PM   #70
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

In other words, I don't think "please" in general polite usage is the equivalent of "I beg and plead with you to deign to do this as I prostrate myself before you and wait to see if you decide to favor me with your mercy" but more, "I know this isn't what you had in mind at the moment, but I'm asking you to do this for me, and I'm letting you know that I appreciate it and acknowledge that it's an interruption in your day."

Likewise, I don't see "thank you" as "Oh, I'm so grateful and forever in your debt" but more of "I'm acknowledging that you took time out of your day to do that for me, and I appreciate it."
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:57 PM   #71
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommy Piadosa View Post
I guess I am just too much of a grammar stickler to understand this. Adding please to a command does not make it a request.
If a child does not understand something said with proper meaning, I do not start using an incorrect meaning to get them to understand, I teach them the proper meaning of a word.
If a child does not understand something polite, it is not an excuse to be rude so they understand, it is time to teach them the rules of manners.
This is not a matter of children not understanding subtlety, it is improper use of the word please to say that adding it to a command turns it into a request. I have very black and white thinkers in my house and they understood this.

I absolutely agree that there are "have to's" and "want to's" with children and that you should never phrase a "have to" as a request, but in American English, adding please to a command does not make it a request, allowing your children to think otherwise is setting them up for difficulty, because it isn't how the word is used. I see it as akin to a child still learning the language deciding that all animals are dogs, and instead of teaching them otherwise, you changing your own vocabulary to match the child's. It is doing them a disservice and underestimating the capacity of children to learn the proper meanings of language.

I have trouble with saying that it doesn't make it request. From what I understand "please" is a shortened form of "if it pleases you" or "if you please". So, if I am giving a command, I wouldn't say, "pick up your shoes if it pleases you". That, by it's very nature is making it optional. Though the modern definition states that it is used to make a request or command polite. The synonyms are "choose, prefer, suit". In placing those words into that same sentence...

Pick up your shoes if you choose
Pick up your shoes if you prefer
Pick up your shoes if it suits you

None of those demand that the shoes be picked up.



With that said, I don't choose to use the word "please" when stating something that is not an option. I posted earlier, that for me, in my home, it works. I don't expect everyone else to agree, which is why I asked in the OP whether people thought I was insane. Honestly, I like your point of view. I like seeing how others view this issue. If I didn't like seeing other's points of view, I wouldn't have posted this topic.
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:35 AM   #72
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

I've been playing around with this and doing some experimentation with my kids. To see what gets a better and quicker reaction. So far today, these our my experiences.

Cuppycake standing on a chair in the library:
Sit down, please. "no"
Sit down, cuppycake. (she sits)

Again, she stands (they shouldn't put the toys so far out of little ones' reach if they are going to get upset every time they climb the table or stand on chairs to reach them, just sayin')
Can you sit down? "no"
Sit on your bottom. (she sits)

again.

Sit down. (sits)

AHA!!! Cuppycake needs two word commands, spoken in a normal tone of voice, not stern (stern can make her cry easily) unless it is dangerous. She cannot understand please to be a command, it seems.

Sunshine getting into her carseat
can you please put your arms in your straps while I buckle sissy? "I want you to do it"
ok i asked she answered.

sunshine getting into her seat properly now that I was able to help.
Sit back right please. she complies
Give me your arm. she complies.
Other arm please. compliance.

it seems Sunshine understands that please is polite, not request.

I will continue to experiment with this with my children, since it seems to be an individual thing whether please denotes request.
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Old 05-18-2012, 10:23 AM   #73
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

Does she ever not sit down when you say "sit down" without the please?
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Old 05-18-2012, 10:30 AM   #74
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

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Originally Posted by purple_kangaroo View Post
Does she ever not sit down when you say "sit down" without the please?
She didn't this morning. I haven't really thought about how I was wording things before this, that's why i am experimenting more. She is almost two. She loves to say no. She is learning what influence she has on her environment and what she can choose for herself. She's making choices, she is becoming independent. Of course she will not always listen regardless of how I state things. It seems that she has greater understanding of what I mean when I give a command without please. Whether this is the please itself or the amount of words, I do not know. She can't tell me.
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Old 05-18-2012, 11:35 AM   #75
WildFlower
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Default Re: Pet Peeve #5 by my own mom

hmm. interesting about using please. I guess I didn't realize what the true meaning of the word meant. I wonder why it's considered manners/ polite then? If you go to a restaurant and ask the water for "a refill please" you expect it to be done not just if they would like to... so why don't we just leave out please? oh well
It does make sense that toddlers wouldn't know what to do with the word when given a command, it's just an extra word that doesn't mean anything to them really. I think of someone consistently used it with their commands the child may begin to associate it with the command and not optional. But then what happens when it is optional , if you do use it? Would they get confused? Maybe the key is just being consistent with whatever approach you use.
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