"Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD

Katigre · 03-05-2011, 10:09 AM

I'd like to discuss this. I have seen the question of whether something is punitive or not come up freqently the forum lately. This post is not directed at any particular thread/poster/discussion, but rather is a topic I think is relevant to discuss separately. Onto my thoughts...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me that parents struggling with GBD often ask discipline questions in the context of whether something is punitive vs. gentle.

Often, this question is a result of parents feeling unsure how to evaluate their response to unwanted behavior. They believe that 'punitive is bad' and 'gentle is good', but don't have a clear working definition for how to evaluate discipline choices in the light of those values.

This dilemna seems to leads to a permissive-punitive swing as they try to 'be gentle' which becomes 'i have no tools to enforce boundaries if the kids don't agree'. When things are pushed far enough, the parent reacts with a harsh consequence born out of frustration rather than a deliberate choice in teaching. This back and forth scenario is very confusing and difficult for both parent and child to navigate, and leads to the worst kind of behavior for everyone. Without a consistent pattern of interaction established in the home, no one knows what to expect or how to adjust. It also leads to misunderstandings of how GBD works.

I personally find the question 'Is this punitive or not?' to be unhelpful in figuring out GBD responses to misbehavior. Equally, 'Is this gentle?' can lead to the thinking that anything spoken in a firm voice or enforced physically (such as carrying a tantruming child out of a store) is 'ungentle'. In the midst of problem solving, this specific question ('punitive or gentle?') can block proactive brainstorming and finding strategies for connecting with our children and teaching them.

Instead, when I am approaching a situation with the kids, I focus on these types of questions when problem solving (let's take the issue of siblings fighting over a toy):
"What response teaches/enforces healthy boundaries?"
"Will this response help keep everyone safe?"
"What values do I want to teach in this situation?" (respect, patience, kindness, etc...)"
"Will my response teach them a pattern for how to act in the future?"

Those questions are proactive and encourage me to think through GBD in a positive way (not as a reaction against being punitive, but in positively choosing it as the best option for my family).

The purpose of this forum is to equip parents with tools - not just practical tools for managing XYZ unpleasant behavior, but also proactive tools for the parent so that they become established in a GBD paradigm. I think figuring out how to rephrase the 'is this punitive?' question into something that promotes more immediate problem solving is an important tool (at least it is for me with my kids).

saturnfire16 · 03-05-2011, 10:26 AM

Can't find the lightbulb smilie, but OH! I wonder if that is where my dh struggles.

He will use that syrupy sweet voice "sweetie will you do XYZ please" in an attempt to be gentle or tell the kids "stop, stop, stop" over and over, but then when they step all over his boundaries anyway he gets irritated and blows up at them. I wonder if in his mind, he is thinking that he knows he doesn't want to spank, yell etc, but doesn't know what TO do. I keep showing and telling him what TO do, which he often does, but I don't think he has quite internalized WHY to do it.

bolt. · 03-05-2011, 10:34 AM

I like this line of thought.

Perhaps the core question is more about, "What do I want to accomplish?" I don't really know... Sometimes I think, "Who's side am I on?" (If I'm on 'my side' feeling like the child is the problem, that's a warning to me -- but if I'm on 'the child's side' working against the problem for their sake, that's OK even if they don't like it or don't see it that way.)

I think a core skill of GBD is the ability to see ourselves clearly and be honest with ourselves when looking at our motives. Because I can justify things if I want to, and so can anyone else -- saying, "I'm acting this way for their own good" -- but a grace-motivated parent has to be able to face the reality that that's not always true, take note of those situations as mistakes (without falling into self condemnation) and work forward with their eyes open, as a learner... it's tough.

It helps if you come from a theological place that emphasises an incarnational view of ministry. (Meaning: the indwelling Spirit is doing the ministry, and we provide the 'flesh' to enact it as His co-worker.)

gpsings · 03-05-2011, 12:58 PM

God knows I need this...I have such a struggle exerting authority anyway without knowing what is punitive and what is not...

Hermana Linda · 03-05-2011, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saturnfire16

Can't find the lightbulb smilie,

:idea

Blue-EyedLady · 03-05-2011, 05:02 PM

SweetCaroline · 03-05-2011, 05:37 PM

this is good.
i know im personally so polluted with the punitive mindset, its hard for me to apply these totally different concepts practically..they make sense in my mind but then theres this lack of confidence and im worried i'll blow it and ruin my kids

i guess thats what we're all scared of?

arctic oak · 03-05-2011, 05:55 PM

bolt. · 03-05-2011, 07:08 PM

I guess I take comfort in the fact that kids are very hard to "ruin" -- the resilient little creatures have grown up in coal mines and wartimes, famines and medieval times...

Certainly we can enhance their experiences, their pschology, and their habits of character -- but I think it takes actual neglegence or malice (and plenty of it) to truly ruin children.

I think of GBD as a great way to maximize what I can contribute to the lives of my kids, but I refuse to live in the fear of accidentally doing them some kind of great and irreperable harm.

SweetCaroline · 03-05-2011, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bolt.

I guess I take comfort in the fact that kids are very hard to "ruin" -- the resilient little creatures have grown up in coal mines and wartimes, famines and medieval times...

Certainly we can enhance their experiences, their pschology, and their habits of character -- but I think it takes actual neglegence or malice (and plenty of it) to truly ruin children.

I think of GBD as a great way to maximize what I can contribute to the lives of my kids, but I refuse to live in the fear of accidentally doing them some kind of great and irreperable harm.

the warning in Proverbs stress the importance of discipline. my principals and my conscience tell me that spanking is wrong, but thats just all i know. (geez thats sad) but when everybody you know is against you on the subject- and look at you like you're a heritic -and when your husband is telling you that the kids are going to grow up to act like idiots if we dont spank them.. I start to doubt myself, my conscience.
the set of principals that gentle discipline is based on are clear and solid to me, so i dont doubt them at all.
but, anyway. its like wearing a chicken suit and walking backwards all day- it just still feels foreign to me sometimes. like i have no idea what im doing.

ok. im done

Chaos Coordinator · 03-05-2011, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mommy5

i know im personally so polluted with the punitive mindset, its hard for me to apply these totally different concepts practically..

this exactly.

some of us have minds that have been so poisoned that we really just can't tell the difference anymore and are trying to feel our way through this with the help of other gcm'ers. we really dont know where the line is drawn, what that line looks like or how to recognize it. when we ask "is this punitive" its because we honestly can't tell. everything is so mixed up. its hard to have relationships with full grown adults sometimes, nevermind very very small young people. its not because we are "missing the point" its because we just dont know up from down and we need someone who DOES get it to help us find our way through.

TraceMama · 03-05-2011, 07:47 PM

Chaos Coordinator · 03-05-2011, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katigre

"What response teaches/enforces healthy boundaries?"
"Will this response help keep everyone safe?"
"What values do I want to teach in this situation?" (respect, patience, kindness, etc...)"
"Will my response teach them a pattern for how to act in the future?"

i can ask myself these questions all day, but when you've grown up entrenched in harsh punitive discipline, physical punishment, shaming, and the like, you dont have a healthy concept of boundaries, you justify spanking by saying that it keeps them safe, you equate fear with respect, and refer to principles of b-mod to teach patterns for how to act.

and this is coming from someone who found this website when my firstborn was an infant. i cannot imagine how difficult it must be when you've been parenting for a long time before trying to make the switch.

SweetCaroline · 03-05-2011, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jessisblessed

i cannot imagine how difficult it must be when you've been parenting for a long time before trying to make the switch.

its, like, sickeningly hard. sometimes i feel so unjoyful trying to do this mom thing
i was raised by a single father too. so- im like some harsh man-mom.
sorry.."was". im getting better

Chaos Coordinator · 03-05-2011, 08:22 PM

(i'm having a really bad day so if my posts seem unnecessarily harsh or, even

irrational or unreasonable, lets just blame it on that

)

03-05-2011, 10:09 AM	#1
Katigre Rose Garden Why thank you, it is naturally blue... Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 21,278	"Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD I'd like to discuss this. I have seen the question of whether something is punitive or not come up freqently the forum lately. This post is not directed at any particular thread/poster/discussion, but rather is a topic I think is relevant to discuss separately. Onto my thoughts... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It seems to me that parents struggling with GBD often ask discipline questions in the context of whether something is punitive vs. gentle. Often, this question is a result of parents feeling unsure how to evaluate their response to unwanted behavior. They believe that *'punitive is bad' and 'gentle is good', but don't have a clear working definition for how to evaluate discipline choices in the light of those values. This dilemna seems to leads to a permissive-punitive swing as they try to 'be gentle' which becomes 'i have no tools to enforce boundaries if the kids don't agree'. When things are pushed far enough, the parent reacts with a harsh consequence born out of frustration rather than a deliberate choice in teaching. This back and forth scenario is very confusing and difficult for both parent and child to navigate, and leads to the worst kind of behavior for everyone. Without a consistent pattern of interaction established in the home, no one knows what to expect or how to adjust. It also leads to misunderstandings of how GBD works. I personally find the question 'Is this punitive or not?' to be unhelpful in figuring out GBD responses to misbehavior. Equally, 'Is this gentle?' can lead to the thinking that anything spoken in a firm voice or enforced physically (such as carrying a tantruming child out of a store) is 'ungentle'. In the midst of problem solving, this specific question ('punitive or gentle?') can block proactive brainstorming and finding strategies for connecting with our children and teaching them. Instead, when I am approaching a situation with the kids, I focus on these types of questions when problem solving (let's take the issue of siblings fighting over a toy): "What response teaches/enforces healthy boundaries?" "Will this response help keep everyone safe?" "What values do I want to teach in this situation?" (respect, patience, kindness, etc...)" "Will my response teach them a pattern for how to act in the future?" Those questions are proactive and encourage me to think through GBD in a positive way (not as a reaction against being punitive, but in positively choosing it as the best option for my family). The purpose of this forum is to equip parents with tools - not just practical tools for managing XYZ unpleasant behavior, but also proactive tools for the parent so that they become established in a GBD paradigm. I think figuring out how to rephrase the 'is this punitive?' question into something that promotes more immediate problem solving is an important tool (at least it is for me with my kids). Last edited by Katigre; 03-05-2011 at 12:23 PM.*

03-05-2011, 10:26 AM	#2
saturnfire16 Rose Garden Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: North Eastern CA Posts: 9,119	Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD Can't find the lightbulb smilie, but OH! I wonder if that is where my dh struggles. He will use that syrupy sweet voice "sweetie will you do XYZ please" in an attempt to be gentle or tell the kids "stop, stop, stop" over and over, but then when they step all over his boundaries anyway he gets irritated and blows up at them. I wonder if in his mind, he is thinking that he knows he doesn't want to spank, yell etc, but doesn't know what TO do. I keep showing and telling him what TO do, which he often does, but I don't think he has quite internalized WHY to do it. __________________ ~Emily INTJ, Type 4 Wife to D Mama to: E 12/05 L 7/08 Z 12/10 A 6/14 and J in heaven 2/10 Torah Keeping, Unschooling Family My blog on unschooling and family life: Peace On Dark Nights.

03-05-2011, 10:34 AM	#3
bolt. Rose Trellis Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Posts: 2,963	Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD I like this line of thought. Perhaps the core question is more about, "What do I want to accomplish?" I don't really know... Sometimes I think, "Who's side am I on?" (If I'm on 'my side' feeling like the child is the problem, that's a warning to me -- but if I'm on 'the child's side' working against the problem for their sake, that's OK even if they don't like it or don't see it that way.) I think a core skill of GBD is the ability to see ourselves clearly and be honest with ourselves when looking at our motives. Because I can justify things if I want to, and so can anyone else -- saying, "I'm acting this way for their own good" -- but a grace-motivated parent has to be able to face the reality that that's not always true, take note of those situations as mistakes (without falling into self condemnation) and work forward with their eyes open, as a learner... it's tough. It helps if you come from a theological place that emphasises an incarnational view of ministry. (Meaning: the indwelling Spirit is doing the ministry, and we provide the 'flesh' to enact it as His co-worker.) __________________ Everything written here is the musing and mumblings of an ordinary person. Even if I take myself too seriously, there's no reason for any of you to make the same mistake! Pam, 35 yo Christian for 20 y Married for 15 y Mother to "J" 8 yo, and "M" 5 yo INTJ, DYT 4, Canadian 1 more class until I'm done at Seminary Adjunct Faculty at a Bible College

03-05-2011, 12:58 PM	#4
gpsings Rose Garden ORANGE you glad I made a new avatar? :D Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 4,084	Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD God knows I need this...I have such a struggle exerting authority anyway without knowing what is punitive and what is not... __________________ Gretchen ENTP Wife of Kevin Blessed AP, Homeschooling mama to: Aneliese age 13, Breena age 10, and Caden age 7

03-05-2011, 05:02 PM	#6
Blue-EyedLady Rose Garden The Lion Cub Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Northern Arizona Posts: 10,798	Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD __________________ Mama to The Engineer (7 yo) "When I grow up, I'm going to build Highway 100!" The Imaginative Adventurer (4.5 yo) "I'm going to rescue you!" and The Lion Cub (1 yo)- Smart, cute, strong, and unstoppable! Sister to BlessedBlue forever Co-Founder and Lead Writer at Food Allergies On Ice

03-05-2011, 05:37 PM	#7
SweetCaroline Rose Garden a little Attachment Parenting will fix that Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 3,981	Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD this is good. i know im personally so polluted with the punitive mindset, its hard for me to apply these totally different concepts practically..they make sense in my mind but then theres this lack of confidence and im worried i'll blow it and ruin my kids i guess thats what we're all scared of? __________________ Gently mothering 5 babes one day at a time, only by the help of my Lord - ages 11,6,5, 4, & 2 Nonviolence is not sterile passivity, but a powerful moral force which makes for social transformation. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. ISFP

03-05-2011, 05:55 PM	#8
arctic oak Rose Blossom "...like trees planted by streams of water" Psalm 1 Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Atlantic Canada Posts: 299	Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD __________________ Alison- wife to my best friend since 2001, mother to four boys (2005, 2008, 2014 and 2016 and my girl in the middle (2010).

03-05-2011, 07:08 PM	#9
bolt. Rose Trellis Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Posts: 2,963	Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD I guess I take comfort in the fact that kids are very hard to "ruin" -- the resilient little creatures have grown up in coal mines and wartimes, famines and medieval times... Certainly we can enhance their experiences, their pschology, and their habits of character -- but I think it takes actual neglegence or malice (and plenty of it) to truly ruin children. I think of GBD as a great way to maximize what I can contribute to the lives of my kids, but I refuse to live in the fear of accidentally doing them some kind of great and irreperable harm. __________________ Everything written here is the musing and mumblings of an ordinary person. Even if I take myself too seriously, there's no reason for any of you to make the same mistake! Pam, 35 yo Christian for 20 y Married for 15 y Mother to "J" 8 yo, and "M" 5 yo INTJ, DYT 4, Canadian 1 more class until I'm done at Seminary Adjunct Faculty at a Bible College

03-05-2011, 07:47 PM	#12
TraceMama Rose Garden Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 21,723	Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD __________________ *Tracey* Blessed to be married 24 years. Ever-learning Gentle Mama to 3 Amazing Boys (17, 14, 12) I am determined to be invincible until He has finished His purpose in me.

03-05-2011, 08:22 PM	#15
Chaos Coordinator Rose Garden They need freedom to just be fluffy mashed potatoes and feel their fluffy feelings. Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Up to my earballs in little boys. Posts: 20,259	Re: "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD (i'm having a really bad day so if my posts seem unnecessarily harsh or, even irrational or unreasonable, lets just blame it on that ) __________________ Joy Progressive Methodist Enfp mama to Sparrow, 10 Zion, 7.5 Baby Gus, 4.5 Preschool teacher. Musician. Timelord. Www.justicemercymayhem.wordpress.com "What you plant in the kingdom will surely grow, and what you grow with love will surely bloom, and the fruit of the spirit will come back to you."

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