Very troubled by this sibling issue..... need some pointers

[MamaD]

We have a 3 year old (son #1) and a 19 months old (son #2). I am really troubled by what's going on in this sibling deal, especially with my 3 year old. I need some help creating a much more loving sibling environment.

For example, son #1 wants to do EVERYTHING son #2 is doing (doesn't matter is something is really way below his age). son #1 would also get out of his way to make sure that son #2 doesn't get something. For example, son #1 is playing happily with toyA. son #2 goes and picks up toyB. AS SOON AS son#2 picks up toyB, son#1 IMMEDIATELY drops toyA and runs over to son#2 to try and pull toyB out of son#2's hands claiming that he "needs" it, and he gets very very intense when son#2 doesn't let go of the toyB. If I step in and somehow manages to redirect son#2 to, say toyA (or even toyC) so that son#1 can have toyA (of course I think that's wrong, but #!@), then son#1 will again IMMEDIATELY drop toyB and run to whatever toy son#2 has. It is very obvious that son#1 doesn't actually want the toy son#2 is playing with, instead, all he is trying to do is to make sure son#2 doesn't get it (or doesn't get ANYTHING, including the things son#1 never wanted to begin with). What is the deal with this attitude? I really want some ideas on cracking this "heart issue". I tried many ways and many times to correct the behavior, but I get nowhere with it besides ending up with a real upset son#1 who thinks he is absolutely being mistreated when I ask him to let go of the toy he is pulling out of brother's hand or to give it back to brother. It is not a discipline matter; it is a "heart" matter - why does he not want brother to have ANYTHING so badly that he'd go totally out of his way to ensure brother doesn't get anything? And how to I fix it so that "the heart" can become more loving towards brother?

Another example, every time I serve food, #1 wants to pile "A LOT" on his plate, and there is nothing that can stop him from wanting A LOT. And of course he can never finish eating the amount he asks for. I think the reason that he wants A LOT is just to make sure that there will be none left for brother (or anyone else, I don't know). Sometimes I try to explain to him by pointing at the serving plate and his plate, pointing out how he scooped all the food onto his plate, and showing him how there is so very little left in the serving plate that mom, dad, and brother won't be able to get anything to eat now. I try to explain that mom, dad, and brother each need some too, and he won't put the food back. I think he doesn't want brother to get any....I'm not sure. But this thinking really bothers me. I want an abundant mentality, not a scarce mentality. How do I nurture that?

When #1 sits down on a 2-seat chair (designed just for the two of them to sit together), when he sees #2 coming to sit, he purposely sits right in the middle and ignores me telling him to make room for #2.

Please help me figure out the matter in the heart so I can fix the matter of the heart and not just the behavior (which is totally useless to fix and have tantrums over).

I can see how #1 may not feel like there is "enough" to go around, enough food, enough toys, enough love.... And I try to point out all the times when #1 gets something "special" (which #2 doesn't get due to #2's age being younger), but that doesn't seem to help. What can I do? What is the problem?

[Kiara.I]

For the food, simply serve him what's appropriate and end the discussion. He's 3. It is perfectly acceptable to tell him he may have more when he's finished his serving, if he's still hungry.

If he has big feelings about that, well, he has big feelings. Reflect them, but carry on with the way things are happening.

Regarding the toys: his "heart" wants everything and his brother to have nothing because he's 3. It's a stage. Many things are a stage. Mostly you "fix" them by continued teaching, redirecting, and waiting them out. I have absolutely removed the toy from the older's hand and given it back to the younger, and explained that he can have a turn when the younger is done his turn.

[livingskies]

Well, I think by redirecting son #2 to Toy A and giving toy B to son #1, you are going to exacerbate the issue. Son #2 is old enough now that redirecting so #1 can have the toy is no longer the best choice IMO...

We are struggling with similar issues, yup I think it is a 3 yr old with a closely spaced sibling thing. Ours are 37 mos and 14 mos.

There are going to be meltdowns/tantrums. On both ends likely. Try to remember that crying is okay... likely the toy is not the issue but there is an emotional need. Say "I understand that you are angry, but you may not take toy B from son2. You may choose another toy or wait your turn." (insert meltdown). "I know you are mad. I will sit here with you but you may not steal toy/hit/etc". (let meltdown happen, and only restrain to keep other child safe if needed). After meltdown, discuss. "You were sure upset. I feel frustrated too when I can't have what I want". (may retrigger meltdown. That's actually okay. Remember it is a heart issue not a toy issue. Sit near, or hold him again if that's what he wants). He will feel better, it will feel like forever but what he really needs is to feel heard, not the actual toy. Make sure to hug him after

[allisonintx]

Have you read the 3year old thread?

[DoulaClara]

Three year olds are at a wacky point where there really is such a thing as too much of a choice. It's like the part of their brains that are developing the sense that there is a whole other path leading from the alternate decision causes them to stop and freeze when it comes to the crossroads, and many times, the decision part is overwhelming. While it's awesome to help them develop the ability to serve themselves, it can also temporarily be wayyyy too much, and honestly, instead of standing there and trying to play the wheel and deal game in the effort to get him to jump ahead of his developmental area and "think of others" and not take so much, I would simply alter dinner time so that you serve plates, and later if he wants more, he can grab a spoon and help himself, if you are so inclined. It's asking much too FAR too much to try to rope a three year old into being that kind of decision maker. Kind of like, asking a student of arithmetic to instantly do a page of geometry with correct solutions. They have the tools, a bit, but not enough of them, and not in a way that they can make heads or tails of the Geo problems.

I have ideas for other things, too (my two are two years and nine months apart) but I'm waiting a sec, because your phrasing of "totally useless to fix and have tantrums over" is stopping me a bit. Tell me about your thoughts on tantrums. Do you want him to not tantrum, or to avoid tantrums?

[MamaD]

DoulaClara,

"Do I want him to not tantrum, or to avoid tantrums?" These two sounds the same so I don't know how to answer. I'm not trying to avoid tantrums altogether because I know it's not possible and that tantrums are needed. Although, I want to avoid conflicts and stressful situations when I can. Currently, they wake up and spend the whole day getting on each others' nerves. They also become totally unable to have any concentration or focus on any work or play because they are always distracted by what the other one is doing (that's especially for son#1 who never gets to focus and enjoy any playtime because he's too worried about what son#2 is doing). They are both crying and having tantrums a lot throughout the day. To answer your question - I would like to cut some of those down; I would like to defuse some of those extremely intense and stressful situations where both are pulling at a toy and one eventually falls down because he loses his grip. I don't mind being there to teach, but I want to be more effective where I can defuse the stressful times and create a more friendly, loving environment where they both have fun, feel loved, and enjoy having the brother around (most times).

---------- Post added at 11:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 AM ----------

Oh, the other part I forgot to mention is that I'd like to know how to effectively intervene. When I intervene and say, ask #1 to give the toy back to #2, #1 either doesn't let go, throws the toy at #2, intentionally runs very far away to put the toys down somewhere else saying that he's putting it down over there for #2 (and what he's truly doing is knowingly and intentionally aggravating #2 by running far away with the toy), or giving the toy back to #2 AND THEN hitting #2 as soon as I turn my back. This is what I mean by "fixing the behavior doesn't work" - the behavior being that "you took #2's toy so you give it back to him" isn't the issue. The issue is in the heart - he can fix the behavior by giving the toy back to #2 in any of the ways I described above (which are all inappropriate), but the issue in the heart isn't fixed.

---------- Post added at 11:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:30 AM ----------

Allisontx,
No I haven't read the 3 year old thread, should I? Where is it?

For the food, the suggestion is to serve what I think is appropriate for him and leave it as that. That's what I've done many times, and I really only give him a little bit, for example, only half a toast or 1/3-1/2 kids-size cup of milk, 2tablespoons of beans, etc. I do so because sometimes he doesn't even eat any even though he asks for it. Anyways, he always whines about wanting more when he receives the food. I tell him "you can have AS MUCH AS YOU"D LIKE. AFTER you finish this I'll give you more". Something about it doesn't click, somehow that's not enough for him no matter what I say. Many times I just say "I'll leave your bow here at the counter, when you are ready you can come get it". All of these brings him to a huge tantrum at the dinner table. Here are my questions:
1) Am I doing the right thing by insisting on the serving portion I give him? (his crying makes it look as if I'm really mis-treating him and trying to starve him.
2) How do I deal with his tantrum at the dinner table? Ask him to leave the table and be back when he's calm? (his tantrum escalates when I ask or force him to get off the table). Leave him at the table and ignore him while the rest of us eats? (the extremely loud YELLING and crying stirs up something in DH & #2 that I eventually end up with another 2 cranky babies - DH & #2). What do I do? I approve of the anger but I don't approve the yelling.

I welcome the words of wisdom on tantrums here as it relates to the food issue or brother issue, but I'm also posting a totally separate thread on tantrums because I feel that I need a full lesson on that topic while I need this thread to stay on the original sibling topic so I can get some tips on making sibling harmony and building good sibling experiences for them for life.

[Petie]

Your language is standing out to me.


"ask him to give the toy back"
"refuses to put back food"
"heart problem"

Etc.

Basically I'm stuck on your wording. So I'm going to address that a little.

Don't ask him to give the toy back. Say " you may not take that you, you need to give it back." Does he have his own toys that he isn't required to share? He may be feeling a loss of control over everything and wants to reclaim it.

For food, don't let him serve himself. All mine are older and even the 15 yr old waits to be served ( though he is perfectly capable of serving himself its a respect thing). We also emphasize that serving goes youngest to oldest. I wouldn't trust my 6 yr old to properly serve himself or he'd have a belly full of mashed potatoes and no meat or carrots.

His heart issue is that he has watched this other person come in and steal his things. I know that's not what really happened but in his mind this is what happened. Naomi Aldort explained it like this.

How would you like your husband to come home one day and say "hey, I got another wife. Now I want you to share nicely and be polite to her and don't get mad when it's her night in bed with me.". We would totally lose it, and yet that is exactly what we say to our children.

How much time does he get away from his brother? Why is he required to share a seat with his brother? Is it the only seat available? Does e get one on one mommy time? Remember that three is still a little guy and cuddles and loves from mommy, uninterrupted are still extremely important.

[MamaD]

Petie,

Thanks for your comments. I know where you're getting at with my language. I'll clarify: Even though I said that I "ask him" to give the toy back, I AM saying "You may not take it from his hands. Give it back to him", firmly. I am not saying "Could you" or "will you" or "can you" give it back? So there is no problem there with that kind of language concerns.

On serving himself - I don't always do it, but only occasionally. I take your advice and not let him serve himself. That's fine. But my post recent comment refenced the issues I run into when I serve him less than what he wants - then what? (see my description in above post).

"How would you like your husband to come home one day and say 'hey, I got another wife. Now I want you to share nicely and be polite to her and don't get mad when it's her night in bed with me' ". I do know that this is what it's like to him. I do know that it is hard having a sibling. My question was (and still is) - How can I help create more harmony, loving, and positive experience amongst the siblings?

"why is he required to share a seat with his brother? is it the only seat available?" No that's not the only seat available. We have 2 double seat kids chairs. And I am NOT requiring him to share the same seat. To clarify what I was describing, I'm talking about #1 intentionally scooting to the middle of the double-seat chair/bench and sticking his butt to the middle the moment #2 comes and wants to sit in the same double-seat chair with him; I'm talking about manners & courtesy - when someone comes and wants to join you, you scoot over and give a little room to them, or you just don't sit your butt right in the middle of a multi-seat chair when there is someone else around that may want to sit down too. Where else are you going to learn those courtesy but starting at home? Sometimes he even pushes brother off the chair when brother tries to sit next to him. None of that is acceptable to me. And like I said in my original post, I know I can't just fix his behavior or tell him what to do when the kindness and courtesy needs to come from the heart. I want to learn how to nurture the kindness from the heart.

"How much time does he get away from his brother?" Not too much but on daily basis we have "quiet time" when he goes to his own room to read and play with whatever he wants in his own room (door closed) for anywhere between 15-25 minutes and then go down to nap on his own when his timer beeps (I set the timer for how long to play before he has to sleep). And the quiet time (quiet alone play + nap) altogether is 1.5 - 2 hours daily. Also, after he wakes up from nap, there is usually 30 minutes of him without brother (either doing something on his own, watching what I'm doing, or doing something with me) until brother wakes up too.


"one on one mommy time"? none scheduled now but it typically happens speratically when DH has #2 for a few minutes here and there, I will read with #1.

[Elspeth]

I just want to say thank you for posting this. This is practically our house right now, right down to the ages and scenarios. For me, I feel like all the teaching moments aren't doing any good because the negative behavior doesn't stop. It's like I'm talking or demonstrating to a brick wall, so what's the point? It's very defeating.

I will have to try the separate toy basket, one on one mommy time, and things like that.

[MamaD]

Absolutely, the new ideas I got were special own toys (which I've just implemented) and one-on-one mommy time (which I still need to work on). And continuous teaching, over and over again, even if it feels like it's doing nothing at all, and preferably very patiently if I can hold up my anger about the incidence.

I have a related but haven't-been-brought-up question:
What to do when the 3 year old (#1) knowingly and intentionally teach or tell the 19 months (#2) old to do something wrong?

Examples are: 3 year old saying to 19 month old
- "#2, can you blow your milk in the cup?" --while demonstrating blowing into the milk cup. Both boys starts blowing, making big mess and laughing...
- "#2, can you pee on the carpet?" ---19 months old is completely toilet trained and upon older brother's suggestion, he immediately pulls pants down and starts peeing on carpet. #1 laughs and #2 laughs and both boys laughing hysterically while #2 starts peeing more on the carpet.
- "#2 can you jump off the couch like this?" -- rule in the house is no standing on the couch. #1 not only stands up on the couch but jumps off and tells #2 to do it. #2 of course follows....

Then there are times and things that #1 won't dare to do himself but will tell #2 to do. For example, "#2, can you dump all your cereal on the floor?" #2 then dumps the whole bowl onto the floor. I get angry, takes #2's bowl away whiling telling him "we don't dump food, we eat our food". And now #2 is totally upset with a big tantrum, feeling like he was innocent, and I know he is because he wouldn't have done it or even thought of it if #1 hasn't suggested it. This happens a lot when #1 tells #2 to do something completely inappropriate, which causes #2 to lose his things or privileges (food, drink cup, toy, etc). The only thing I could possibly do to stop #2's inappropriate behavior is by taking the thing away (food, drink cup, toy, etc) but I feel really bad for #2 because it's not his fault (while he is so young to tell right from wrong, and that he is only trying to be like older brother and do what older brother said). It really is unfair for #2 and I feel so bad for him for losing his stuff and being sad and upset. But regarding #2, I don't know what else to do besides taking the pencil away to stop him from drawing on the wall or take his milk away to stop him from spitting, spilling, playing with it. And regarding #1, I'm even more troubled about what it is that I can do with #1 for knowingly teaching #2 the wrong things. Any suggestion on both sides?

I really feel like #1's behavior deserves a consequence or punishment, but I don't know what it could be to be appropriate and most importantly effective. If you have suggestions on how to address this behavior please tell me.

It really makes me very very angry because all #1 has to do is sit there and move his mouth, then I'm in trouble having to deal with #2 learning and doing the wrong things for days and weeks from the moment #1 gives him the idea. And #2 is in trouble for what I consider to be innocent when he tries to copy, learn from, or do as #1 says, and later on finds it to be quiet fun to do. So I'm constantly taking things away from #2 and getting tangled with #2's tantrum for having things taken away from him.

[MarynMunchkins]

Older siblings!

Have them both make amends as they are able. Both are old enough (mostly ) to use a rag to soak up pee or wipe spilled milk. And plan some sensory play they can do together - blowing bubbles in the tub, digging in a sand/rice box, finger painting with pudding.

Siblings work as partners in crime for a long time. Boys are messy partners in crime.

[WingsOfTheMorning]

Small children just don't learn very fast sometimes. You can't force a three year old to have more impulse control than a three year old has.

Obviously, there is the option of coming up with a bad enough punishment that you scare them into never doing that again, but I don't want fear of me to be their motivation.

[HadassahSukkot]

My two are 18 months apart. This is our life every day if I don't keep an ear peeled and an eye half open while I sleep.

For the most part, it takes logistic planning BEFORE I sleep, and having safe toys out. Wii is off limits until daddy gets home, even for mommy. . . this way I can't be caught at nap time and them justify that I broke a rule set for them, when they think it also applies to me. So, even rule all around.

No snacks at breakfast, they are for after lunch. Must self moderate. Same for soda/juice.

We get our socks and shoes on BEFORE we go out the door. The only exception is if I've run out of time and can do it quicker in the car while they're tied in one place. Very rare. (how do two kids run around so much and be in so many places at once? it defies the laws of relativity!)

IF I am awake enough at night and know the kids will be up early, I now set out a water bottle that they can share (JD knows how to open and close them on his own now), cereal (this will be changing with our new diet), or bread that they can get.

I make sure the TV can be turned on (safe channel like Disney/Disney Jr) when they wake up between 6 and 7, so that I can be assured they don't start the dangerous play before the cereal or bread is all gone. This gives me about 30-60 safe minutes to pry my eyes open with toothpicks if need be, and crawl to the kitchen to begin our day.

IF the older of the two is the one instigating the mischief, I find tasks (or games) he can do at my side away from the younger one. This way all fights or instigation stops before it starts.

If the younger is the one instigating (snatching toys, taunting, making his brother chase him) - I take HIM with me, and we watch something together.

If THEY make a mess of toys, they get to clean it up. If THEY throw their food, THEY get to clean it up. I physically cannot do it. They have to help. Mama passed out in the floor due to all the up/down is just not an option.

While JD is in kindergarten, I find things for TB to do alone and with me. This way when JD gets home, he's tuckered enough he won't instigate TOO much trouble. He'll try, but I'll be rested enough I can hop on the spot and separate and find tasks for them.

I know at 2 (almost 3) and 4 1/2, there isn't a whole lot of impulse control and that a lot of "really fun things to do!!" are all about immaturity and cause and effect. Some of it is to see how fast I will come running. Some is to see "What happens if we do _______?" And some of it isn't even thought about before they do it. They just do it because it's there... and it looked like fun.

If I slow down enough from the point of freaking out over that scary no impulse control, no fear action the kids did - I remember I did some of the same stuff, because it was so interesting and adults were allowed, but kids were not allowed to do it. So we tried it.

I remember stories where I "always wanted to do" something forbidden to children, and my grandparents let me, to see what I would do and my reaction to it - like pushing the rear view mirror or side mirrors on the car... or fixing my own plate and serving myself vs someone doing it for me.

And when I remember that, I remember how I felt that everyone swore I couldn't do something on my own, and I did - and how shocked they were that I'd worked it out ok. So I remember to set rules within reason, let the kids try things out safely, but when my nerves are shot, have an agreement that this is where we stop and they can try when papa gets home. This way it's not completely forbidden but "later".

OK, they want to jump around - let's have dance hour. But not on mama's couch. The can dance anywhere else in the room.

Lots and lots of scripting of things like "hands are not for hitting", "whoever had the toy first, keeps it unless they let you play with it."

It takes time, and I'm sure you'll find the boys adjust themselves together and as more impulse control comes, less issues like this.

For now, hide all the crayons, pencils, markers, pens and such if that's the problem. Out of sight. It'll be a pain for you, but when they can be supervised, they can come down again.

If one is scripting the other to misbehave, begin talking about looking out for each other and working together to HELP each other, vs finding ways to hurt each other. Maybe find some playful tasks they have to help each other with, like cleaning up together, bathing together, the sand box, bubbles, helping you put the laundry in the wash or in the basket/on the line - and so on.

Once they build that basic relationship of helpers rather than mischief makers out to one up each other with who can do the scarier/worst thing.

It will not happen overnight, but a 30 minute stretch here, a hour there... and you'd be surprised how things change in the long run.

[Dovenoir]

This will be our age interval too.
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